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Fired

zachholman.com

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Re: Fired

#181

Post by bane »

When I'm interviewing people and find out they were fired from a previous job, I always talk to them about it. If they're really evasive about it, only then do I red flag it. If they've come to terms with it and can clearly articulate what happened, even if it was their fault, I just count it as experience and don't think much more of it.

On the flip side, unless somebody is really fucking things up, I almost always offer people a way to gracefully resign and keep that stigma off their work history.

I've worked in places that also played the "we're not happy with you but we're not going to have a grown-up adult conversation with you". Instead of just firing somebody or asking them to resign, they'll start cutting pay or moving people around offices, taking work or staff away from them and isolating them so they decide to quit on their own. Don't do this. There's lots of reasons why not to, but the ultimate one is that it prolongs the inevitable, and while you're playing this game everybody around that person ends up in a state of perpetual confusion and rumors start flying around like crazy.

As an employee, I also try to pay attention to my impact on the company and evaluate myself. If I'm not living up to my own standards, I'll get rid of myself and find someplace else to work. Quitting is not always about your employer providing a lousy place to work or career progression, if it's just not working for you and you aren't doing your best, you might be the cause of your own leaving.

Re: Fired

#182

Post by davidu »

rdtsc wrote: post #165
jghn wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality". I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is m…

> I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance What's missing from the equation is what it does to others. Sure one person got fired, bam! easy peasy. Well not so easy because everyone else in the company witnessed that. It becomes a message to everyone else. "As soon you hit the first bump, or maybe you are sick, or have a family emergency we'll throw you under a bus". Everyone pa…

If you are terminating employment seemingly for minor things or if you are even sending that message when you fire someone you have no business being in a position to fire someone.

If you work at a company where you believe this is the case, you should leave so you are leaving on your terms and on your timeline.

Re: Fired

#183

Post by EvaK_de »

platz wrote: post #166
jghn wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality". I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is m…

I think in Germany there is less of a problem with firing because there are less laws around it and more support structures for those who are let go. Makes companies more likely to hire as well knowing they aren't as locked in.

The opposite is true. It is very hard to fire someone in Germany, at least compared to the US. When you compare the situation in Germany with that in Italy however - yeah, then you're right.

Re: Fired

#184

Post by swah »

JDiculous wrote: post #92

Why is this on the front page? Because he worked at GitHub? What was the point of this?

Why is Steve Jobs' passing the highest voted submission of all time??

Re: Fired

#185

Post by funkdobiest »

Ow this hits home, my company had layoffs this week, and fortunately I wasn't on the block but many friends and co-workers were. People who should not have to be looking for work. Our company has acquired this weird Silicon Valley mentality that you should never work at a business for longer than 3-4 years.I know things can get stale after being somewhere for a while, but if you prune your employees every 5 years then you will never get any long term loyalty, or even talent that can make a differnce.

Re: Fired

#186

Post by woodchuck64 »

enraged_camel wrote: post #68
ChuckMcM wrote: post #51

I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. Mostly it is the illusion of control, you don't have it, you only have choices you can make in the face of unfolding events. At Zach points out, companies change as they grow, they are some weird strange attractor…

>>I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. People take getting fired personally because, at least in America, a person's job is a huge part of not just their self-identity, but also their social image. So when they lose that job, it's like they lose a pa…

Agreed. Whatever one spends one's time on, the effort seems somehow less than optimally spent if it truly doesn't matter to one's self-identity.

Re: Fired

#187

Post by apalmer »

crpatino wrote: post #142
toomuchtodo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unp…

Cut expenses, payoff debt, increase savings... on principle. Then when you see the first early warnings, do the same but twice as hard. I am well on track to pay the mortage in 4 years instead of the standard 20, have probably 6 months of expenses in the bank, plus another 2-3 months of expenses in a different account because the wife has begin to have funny ideas about what to do with the extra cash. (I have already…

are you saying that you are hiding money in secret accounts from your wife because she wanted to have a vacation?

Re: Fired

#188

Post by jasonlotito »

rralian wrote: post #88
rdtsc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you interview ask how many people with MBAs and no programming experience you'll be working under. That is a good heuristic for future pain and frustration. Managers who are good engineers don't always manage well. Managers who have never been engineers are usually worse. > When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't understand what their doing, by definition you cannot man…

> When you interview ask how many people with MBAs and no programming experience you'll be working under. If someone asked that, I would probably consider that a red flag, that they are mistrustful of "business types" and probably difficult to work with.

> I would probably consider that a red flag

I would not. I would assume they want to work under people with experience in their field and learn from them.

The thing about your advice (and mine, and most all interview advice) is that it's mostly useless. It's only beneficial to people interviewing you, and if it's beneficial to them, it's bad for you. After all, if they would ask that question, but they know not to, they are still that person you would mistrust.

The reality is, people should ask these types of questions. If you wouldn't hire them because of that question, it's likely the would not enjoy working at your company.

Re: Fired

#189

Post by timjahn »

crpatino wrote: post #142
toomuchtodo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unp…

Cut expenses, payoff debt, increase savings... on principle. Then when you see the first early warnings, do the same but twice as hard. I am well on track to pay the mortage in 4 years instead of the standard 20, have probably 6 months of expenses in the bank, plus another 2-3 months of expenses in a different account because the wife has begin to have funny ideas about what to do with the extra cash. (I have already…

How are you paying off the mortgage in 1/5 of the time?

Re: Fired

#190

Post by BuildTheRobots »

This is probably a stupid question, but could someone explain what it means to be fired in the USA?

Here in the UK (especially after you've been employed for over two years and/or you're off "probation") it tends to be the last step in a long process of verbal then written warnings where you're repeatedly doing things you're getting told off for. Relatively few things are actually "bad" enough to get you instantly dismissed on the spot (theft and the woolly term "gross misconduct" jump to mind, but even then there were multiple meetings, investigations and very specific charges).

In the UK if you were fired (rather than being made redundant or being given the chance to quit) it tends to mean that the blame is on you, to the point where the company would be willing to prove this with evidence at a tribunal (-especially if it's a medium to large company).

From what I'm reading, in the US it seems to be a case that you could loose your job, with no notice at any time for any reason?

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