I don’t know what to do, you guys • Hacker News Board

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#201

Post by jsprogrammer » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:06 AM UTC

davesque wrote: post #170

jsprogrammer wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brendan. Wasn't fired; resigned, but could have stayed on. Everyone has the right to choose their leader (if they even want one).

You know, the fact that this post was down-voted is actually a great example of the phenomenon being discussed here. Opposing views are met with hostility. I really think HN needs a lesson on down-arrow usage.

I don't even see how my post is an opposing view. The first two sentences are statements of fact. I'd argue that the third sentence is also a fact, but I'll accept that not everyone believes it.

I honestly don't get what people disagreed with, I was just attempting to correct some of the factual errors that people had been making all over this comment section.

Edit: Ah, I see that the person I responded to edited their post from "Brandon" to the correct, "Brendan".

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#202

Post by kelnos » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 1:28 AM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #16

I don't think it's an accident that all three of his examples involve college students. I saw plenty of examples of this type of aggressive ideological policing in various political groups I was involved in when I was college. I have seen exactly zero in nearly twenty years of being involved with and working in left-wing politics after graduation. (Which isn't to say it never happens, I'm sure it does, just that it's…

I see this outside academia, definitely. I don't participate in political groups, but I see these debates among friends and acquaintances, on the internet, and in the workplace, even (usually in relation to diversity initiatives).

The overwhelming message I hear (not that anyone ever says it explicitly) is: "you either believe everything we say, or you're against us". It's gotten to the point that I (as a white male) have a lot of fear of speaking out when it comes to these matters, to the point where often I just keep my mouth shut. Not saying there aren't times when I should be keeping my mouth shut. But I do feel like I have some useful things to say, but I'm afraid to say them.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#203

Post by solipsism » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 2:17 AM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #130

solipsism wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're saying yours is the nuanced position and anyone disagreeing with you does so out of inability to grasp the nuance. Is that how you really feel?

Nope. I honestly don't think there is disagreement, because I don't think many people understood my position. They made up their mind Eich was evil, so when I said anything in support of him, I became evil. That is inability to grasp nuance.

I have no idea what your supposedly nuanced position is nor whether I would agree with it, but in my experience a person who would claim in a public forum that his position is just too intelligent for other people is unlikely to hold an intelligent position and is 50% likely to be wrong.

So let's hear you're incredibly nuanced position. I'm waiting to have my mind blown!

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#204

Post by solipsism » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 2:25 AM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #127

electronvolt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: if it came out that Eich had donated to, say, the KKK, would you feel the same way? I have mixed feelings over the way he was treated, but your argument actually seems the opposite of nuanced: the blanket claim that someone should never be fired for their political views (particularly, from a public position where their politics could have an effect on the company they represent both on internal culture and…

>Question: if it came out that Eich had donated to, say, the KKK, would you feel the same way? Yep. Although that would be a much higher "this won't affect his job performance" bar than Eich's anti-gay marriage stance, which passed that bar because his was a purely religious stance and pretty clearly didn't imply personal or professional animosity toward homosexuals (amidst all the flak I never read a single anecdote…

I believe strongly in defending rights regardless of content. I am a strong backer of the ACLU, for example, especially when they defend the rights of a group like the KKK. I think that doing so makes a much stronger statement in support of those rights than defending someone you agree with.

This is the nuance you talk up? Silly. You're flattering yourself. I believe the above and yet don't think Eich was wronged. Maybe that's too nuanced a position for you.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#205

Post by kelnos » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 2:45 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #173

tomlock wrote: post #45

I don't think queer-exclusive spaces should exist, and I'm queer, and extremely left wing. That opinion is unpopular in queer circles. The flak I cop for that is nothing compared to the very real, quantified consequences for women trying to enter tech, or who are already in it. I think we should upvote more articles about that and less articles about this.

Your point is good, but I think you've missed the argument. The author wasn't saying that intersectionalism produces worse injustices than other parts of society. The author was saying that intersectionalism marginalises itself and drives away allies by focussing on orthodoxy and using shame as a tool to change habits of speech. This ties into the larger issues of gender reform in tech. A left wing that didn't active…

And that's it, exactly. As much as it would be nice if it weren't necessary, the less-privileged need allies in the form of the privileged to further the social justice movement. The tactics in place in many cases serve to drive away potential allies. You can bitch and moan about potential allies having it easy or having a "less difficult struggle", but the end result is the same: fewer allies.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#206

Post by kelnos » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 2:50 AM UTC

Pxtl wrote: post #56

tomlock wrote: post #45

I don't think queer-exclusive spaces should exist, and I'm queer, and extremely left wing. That opinion is unpopular in queer circles. The flak I cop for that is nothing compared to the very real, quantified consequences for women trying to enter tech, or who are already in it. I think we should upvote more articles about that and less articles about this.

Well said. I find the internet social justice movement intensely annoying. They are, to be blunt, assholes. But unfortunately, they're also right more often than not. And dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture that is just somewhat pathetic.

And dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture that is just somewhat pathetic.

I think the difference here is that many geeks are of the mindset that it should be "easy" for them to help, both in action and emotionally. Constantly being berated for "not helping exactly the right way" puts people in a foul mood. The bottom line is that there aren't many easy-to-see benefits for non-oppressed allies. Basically many geeks see it as the less-privileged asking them for help, with nothing really in it for them except constantly being taken to task for not being immediately perfectly sensitive to all the issues women and people of color face.

It's a little disingenuous to both vehemently assume, expect, and require that sensitivity while at the same time saying "there's no way you can possibly understand the struggles we face". Can't have it both ways.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#207

Post by kelnos » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 3:26 AM UTC

hammerdr wrote: post #81

vacri wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I hung out on a forum called 'stuff white people do' for a while. I wanted to find out more about racism, and the forum host was white, along with the denizens being a mixed group (I didn't want to stick my nose into a place where it wasn't wanted). Anyway, this exact thing you suggest was something that they explicitly had articles against. "PoC are tired of being asked about their experiences. Go read a book fi…

Thanks for the story. It's something to consider when being conscientious about these things. I think a possible difference is that asking someone to share their experience directly invokes some kind of entitlement on the part of the asker. But, I don't think that there is anything wrong with amplifying the messages of those underrepresented [1]. Many people with true experience are talking, but have trouble getting…

I think a possible difference is that asking someone to share their experience directly invokes some kind of entitlement on the part of the asker.

This is something I really don't get. This attitude seems so dysfunctional and counterproductive. If I ask a question about someone's experiences, it's because I'm interested in learning more about that person. If they're not comfortable talking about it with me, for whatever reason, they need only say so, and I'll understand and not pursue it.

I believe in general I'm entitled to ask questions (with a gut-check as to how personal the question might be vs. how well I know the person, which might cause me to decide not to ask), and the other person is entitled to decline to answer. That's just how polite social interaction works.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#208

Post by angersock » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 4:14 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #198

angersock wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody makes harmful actions every week, some minor some not. You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions. If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts .

>You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions. Not if they are specifically hiding those actions from people that would recognize them as harmful. >If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts. I don't know why you're making a narrative about witch hunts. The original statement was that it's bad when people…

It's the part where, having not seen public evidence of the behavior, you are still concerned that somewhere at midnight vigils and seances they are practicing their evil racist ways, and that "Something be done!".

Racism in and of itself is a quirk, and if you can't prove that others are actually harming people with it, you shouldn't begrudge other people their opinions--even if you don't like them.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#209

Post by Balgair » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

electronvolt wrote: post #33

From my experience at one of the elite public universities: Something I noticed as a student who spent time around activists (I wouldn't say I am one--I fundamentally agree with many pretty far-left social and economic ideas but I didn't participate in marches/action and was only occasionally involved in their official groups) was that there were sometimes people who used left wing politics and the language of inters…

I'm in grad school and this is also true of the sciences. I'll make a comment about how X is metaphor for Y, mostly as a way to solidify and arrange my brain to learn. For example: The Circle of Willis is a arterial structure in your brain that keeps blood moving even if there is a clot, I likened this to a set of resistors in parallel. Oh man, the looks... I felt like I had grown 10 heads. It's natural to me to want to tie things together, but for others, no way, you either have the language or you don't, the in words and shibboleths or nothing at all.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#210

Post by graeme » Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 7:51 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #199

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You admit that the "online social justice movement" is dysfunctional, yet you put the onus on so-called "geek culture" to fix their problems for them? Why "geek culture" in particular, and is a notable subset of it already not involved with the former movement?

>onus on so-called "geek culture" to fix their problems for them What? That comment doesn't say anything even resembling that.

The OP used a poor pronoun reference:

>dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture

It's not clear whether the author means "its" to refer to SJW or geek culture's problems. I believe the author meant geek culture should fix its own problems, but it's a reasonable misinterpretation to have read that sentence as referring to SJW's problems.

That's where the parent comment was coming from.