Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM • Hacker News Board

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#201

Post by cryoshon » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

comrade1 wrote: post #27

I wish there was a way to post anon here. I create a new id every now and then and post but no one sees the posting because it's new... I wish more people would be outraged by where the u.s. Is going and just leave. If you're educated, have desirable skills, you can just come to Europe. If you think you can change what's happening in the u.s. I do not agree with you. You will lose to the political class. They have 10…

I mostly agree, but remember that evil doesn't stop just because you remove your complicity from it-- it has to be actively contained or else it just continues to spread.

I agree that the US is a force for evil in the world. Getting other Americans to believe this is extremely difficult, as it is directly contrary to decades of militaristic propaganda.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#202

Post by zo1 » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:14 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #173

jdimov wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, I am appalled by the LACK of discussion of these topics on this hacker site. Why is there a taboo on politics? Why is it out of reach? 400 innocent children were killed indiscriminately in the span of 6 weeks in Gaza. But your vim configuration is more worthy of discussion here? Idk...

People don't approach politics rationally. For instance: >400 innocent children were killed indiscriminately in the span of 6 weeks in Gaza The bias implicit in this suggests that you consider that either someone agrees with your point of view, or else they support the slaughter of innocent children. Which further suggests that what you're looking for is not discussion , but pro-Palestinian advocacy, as there is no r…

"The bias implicit in this suggests that you consider that either someone agrees with your point of view, or else they support the slaughter of innocent children."

There is no bias. Either he is lying, or he is not. You can sugar-coat the discussion any way you want to wiggle out of it, but facts and lies are what count.

And yeah, you're right. There is only one side, and that's the side of "the best available truth". Not that people understand any of that jazz with all the "bias" being thrown back and forth in the media. Your post included.

Honestly, I don't even know enough about this recent Gaza/Israel thing. Just commenting on your "bias" retort to the parent's assertion that 400 children were killed.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#203

Post by cryoshon » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:17 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #96

notastartup wrote: post #33

This is like being shaken down by the Mafia. You are not gonna do what we like? It's gonna cost ya. Next we are gonna break Marissa's legs.

That's how courts enforce court orders. You can get philosophical and say that the state is just like the mafia, man, except legal. But surely you understand the need for some mechanism to force compliance from people who just say "I don't want to do that" to a court ruling.

It's a secret court, with secret penalties, none of which you're allowed to talk about if you're being attacked by it.

Democracy does not coexist with expansive secret court systems...

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#204

Post by tptacek » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:19 PM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #119

theworst wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your point that he wasn't a criminal, but had evidence and charges trumped because of his resistance? Or is your point that everyone that powerful has done something illegal, and those that are caught are "painted as scum" because of unrelated actions? In one case, we have a socially decent person (fuck "law abiding", in this context) who is wronged by "justice". In the other case, we have someone who got away wit…

Everyone has done something which is technically illegal or could be painted in a bad light. This is an old truth best stated by Richelieu - If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, I'll find something in them which will see him hang . Something like insider trading is a particularly grey area, because directors trade all the time with more knowledge than the public (how could they not), and leaks of…

Nacchio isn't accused of one of those "transporting the wrong species of muskmelon across state lines" crimes. He was convicted of defrauding his own shareholders out of many many millions of dollars. It's worth adding that the conviction happened during a famous wave of prosecutions of similar crimes at Worldcom, Anderson, Enron, &c.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#205

Post by tptacek » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #191

tptacek wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overstated it by using the wrong metric: proceeds, not profits. The facts of the case, which demonstrate Nacchio selling out of his position in his own company based on private information unavailable to his common shareholders, remain (so far as I can see) unimpeached. Why are you defending this person?

Why? To support the point that citing an indictment is a highly questionable approach to attacking someones credibility, especially after witnessing it effectively derail the conversation in this thread. The insider trading case does not disprove that QWest faced serious economic repercussions for non-compliance. The question of whether his insider trading charge, which was filed by the SEC four years after his initi…

I don't even know how to respond to this comment, because I don't see where Nacchio's "credibility" is even on the table.

The guy was convicted of defrauding his shareholders out of many millions of dollars. The basic fact pattern supporting the allegation is there in black and white; his attorneys have, from what I've read, acknowledged those facts.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#206

Post by danielweber » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:24 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #191

tptacek wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overstated it by using the wrong metric: proceeds, not profits. The facts of the case, which demonstrate Nacchio selling out of his position in his own company based on private information unavailable to his common shareholders, remain (so far as I can see) unimpeached. Why are you defending this person?

Why? To support the point that citing an indictment is a highly questionable approach to attacking someones credibility, especially after witnessing it effectively derail the conversation in this thread. The insider trading case does not disprove that QWest faced serious economic repercussions for non-compliance. The question of whether his insider trading charge, which was filed by the SEC four years after his initi…

An average federal indictment's stating of base facts ("on February 13th Nacchio sold 180,000 shares") is much more trustworthy than, say, the average Wikipedia page.

In court, the standard is that the prosecution should prove its case to the jury of the accused's peers beyond a reasonable doubt. That's great and should stay that way.

But for the purposes of Internet message board discussion, there's no need for that high of a threshold. The appeal didn't say Nacchio didn't insider-trade; just that his gains should be considered gains-less-taxes.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#207

Post by krapp » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:25 PM UTC

zo1 wrote: post #202

krapp wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't approach politics rationally. For instance: >400 innocent children were killed indiscriminately in the span of 6 weeks in Gaza The bias implicit in this suggests that you consider that either someone agrees with your point of view, or else they support the slaughter of innocent children. Which further suggests that what you're looking for is not discussion , but pro-Palestinian advocacy, as there is no r…

"The bias implicit in this suggests that you consider that either someone agrees with your point of view, or else they support the slaughter of innocent children." There is no bias. Either he is lying, or he is not. You can sugar-coat the discussion any way you want to wiggle out of it, but facts and lies are what count. And yeah, you're right. There is only one side, and that's the side of "the best available truth"…

You are right, I don't understand the situation well enough to have an unbiased or objective opinion about it.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#208

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:38 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #205

dmix wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? To support the point that citing an indictment is a highly questionable approach to attacking someones credibility, especially after witnessing it effectively derail the conversation in this thread. The insider trading case does not disprove that QWest faced serious economic repercussions for non-compliance. The question of whether his insider trading charge, which was filed by the SEC four years after his initi…

I don't even know how to respond to this comment, because I don't see where Nacchio's "credibility" is even on the table. The guy was convicted of defrauding his shareholders out of many millions of dollars. The basic fact pattern supporting the allegation is there in black and white; his attorneys have, from what I've read, acknowledged those facts.

The gov't builds cases using the testimony of criminal conspirators against their accomplices all of the time. Are all of those cases are a sham? If no, then all of your noise about Nacchio's stock sales is irrelevant to the matter of whether the government's prosecution was in retaliation against him.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#209

Post by mrbill » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:51 PM UTC

jdimov wrote: post #164

idlewords wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decent jet engines! Seriously, you typed this statement and thought what? "Now we'll finally have a fruitful discussion on the hacker site"?

Frankly, I am appalled by the LACK of discussion of these topics on this hacker site. Why is there a taboo on politics? Why is it out of reach? 400 innocent children were killed indiscriminately in the span of 6 weeks in Gaza. But your vim configuration is more worthy of discussion here? Idk...

This is not a political discussion forum.

Re: Feds Threatened to Fine Yahoo $250K Daily for Not Complying with NSA's PRISM

#210

Post by tptacek » Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 7:57 PM UTC

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #208

tptacek wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know how to respond to this comment, because I don't see where Nacchio's "credibility" is even on the table. The guy was convicted of defrauding his shareholders out of many millions of dollars. The basic fact pattern supporting the allegation is there in black and white; his attorneys have, from what I've read, acknowledged those facts.

The gov't builds cases using the testimony of criminal conspirators against their accomplices all of the time. Are all of those cases are a sham? If no, then all of your noise about Nacchio's stock sales is irrelevant to the matter of whether the government's prosecution was in retaliation against him.

I believe this is a non sequitur argument.

I'm not arguing that the government didn't "retaliate" against Nacchio. I have actually no idea whether they did or didn't (it's tricky to tease it out given the timing of the prosecution, which again happened during a wave of similar prosecutions).

My point is that people should be wary about rehabilitating people like Nacchio. The accepted facts of that case do not paint a sympathetic picture.

There are good, strong arguments against NSA surveillance and coercive interventions with industry. They should survive inconvenient facts. But that's not even what's being asked right now. The only question here is, are those arguments damaged by the refutation of one single very convenient fact?

This happens all the time on HN: people really seem to want to observe the world through the lens of their issues. I have trouble with that. I think the NSA needs drastically better regulation, and that some of their actions warrant criminal justice attention. But I have an even bigger problem with accepting what seem to be obvious falsehoods in the service of that perspective.