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Inside the Mirrortocracy

carlos.bueno.org

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Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#201

Post by gaius »

ido wrote: post #190
tptacek wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not in the valley, but ~$105k is not ballpark absurd for senior dev in the US. (I'm in London at the moment and I do acknowledge that this place is fucking fabulously expensive).

I live in Germany and spent almost 8 years in Austria before that & that (60k gbp = 75k eur) would be considered a very good salary for a senior dev here.

It is pointless to compare raw numbers without also considering cost of living. Rent, travel, food, entertainment, etc are all expensive in London.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#202

Post by hsod »

rayiner wrote: post #60

> “Well, I grabbed coffee with the founder, and I had dinner with the team last night, and then we went to a bar together.” I'm no teetotaler, but bars can be uncomfortable to downright hostile places for the majority of people (women + people who don't drink for religious or health reasons). It's absolutely inappropriate and unprofessional to incorporate one into an interview. This is typical "old boy's club" shit,…

If you were a vegetarian, would you be offended if the interview was at a restaurant that serves mostly meat-based dishes?

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#203

Post by jdbernard »

facepalm wrote: post #195
jdbernard wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't really have time to become an expert in this by dozens of articles. Then why are you spending so many words arguing about it?

Discussing things used to be a good way to gain understanding. You know, back in the day before PC, when people were still willing to have a real discussion. Besides, I can't stand bullshit and prejudice.

Discussing things is still a good way to gain understanding. But your unwillingness to acquaint yourself with actual research done on the topic tells me you aren't really interested in gaining understanding, just yelling your opinion louder than everyone else.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#204

Post by s_husso »

austinz wrote: post #3

That linked 42Floors blog post is terribly self-unaware. > Most startups take the building of their culture very seriously, especially when the culture is still new and quite fragile. If your culture is so fucking fragile that a guy wearing a suit (as opposed to a T-shirt and jeans) poses an existential threat to it, you need to re-evaluate whether you are actually building a company 'culture', or just some random ag…

> That linked 42Floors blog post is terribly self-unaware.

It seems it has been taken down (http://blog.42floors.com/interviewing-at-a-startup/), or is someone getting content?

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#205

Post by facepalm »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #194
facepalm wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says they are oblivious? Maybe they just don't like to hire people who don't drink. Why should they be obliged to hire them?

There's a difference between a legal obligation and a rational move. It's not illegal to refuse to hire non-drinkers, but it is both irrational and even (if your firm becomes powerful in the labor market) somewhat unethical.

I'm not claiming it is a good idea to do so, I am just questioning the claim that companies shouldn't be allowed to do so.

I think most commentators here immediately think of a big, powerful corporation and poor, desperate employees jumping through hoops to get any job. But that certainly isn't the normal case. If somebody is motivated to fund a company to be able to run things in a way they enjoy, they should be allowed to do so (of course there are limits, but liking to hang out with colleagues is not the limit).

Imagine you are hiring your first employee, ever. Is it really outrageous to want to hire somebody you get along with well (more than just "being professional")? That person will be the only other human being you will be exposed to for a majority of your time. Maybe in a big open plan office with hundreds of employees those concerns are less important (among hundreds, you will find some likeminded souls). But not every company is that big.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#206

Post by eli_gottlieb »

facepalm wrote: post #205
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between a legal obligation and a rational move. It's not illegal to refuse to hire non-drinkers, but it is both irrational and even (if your firm becomes powerful in the labor market) somewhat unethical.

I'm not claiming it is a good idea to do so, I am just questioning the claim that companies shouldn't be allowed to do so. I think most commentators here immediately think of a big, powerful corporation and poor, desperate employees jumping through hoops to get any job. But that certainly isn't the normal case. If somebody is motivated to fund a company to be able to run things in a way they enjoy, they should be all…

>Is it really outrageous to want to hire somebody you get along with well (more than just "being professional")?

This depends how well. I don't need to hire someone I would go out at night with. I am not hiring friends or prospective spouses. I need to hire someone who will get the job done.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#207

Post by cafard »

The thing that strikes me is that this isn't new. There is a famous story of Steve Jobs and his group abusing some guy who had shown up to an interview in a suit. DeMarco and Lister in Peopleware can be read as justifying aspects of this (see chapter 22).

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#208

Post by jmromer »

> Well, dude, no, actually you can overdress for an interview and you just did.

I can think of two reasons why someone would dress up for a dressed-down interview:

(1) They don't yet understand the social terrain they've entered well enough (particularly salient: people with class/cultural backgrounds underrepresented in tech).

(2) They're conscientious enough to go through the trouble of dressing well for an interview in order to signal they care about getting hired.

So that's some of what you're selecting against when you reject a candidate for failing the "go-out-for-a-beer" test: irrelevant cultural differences and conscientiousness. Bizarre.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#209

Post by ColdHawaiian »

s_husso wrote: post #204
austinz wrote: post #3

That linked 42Floors blog post is terribly self-unaware. > Most startups take the building of their culture very seriously, especially when the culture is still new and quite fragile. If your culture is so fucking fragile that a guy wearing a suit (as opposed to a T-shirt and jeans) poses an existential threat to it, you need to re-evaluate whether you are actually building a company 'culture', or just some random ag…

> That linked 42Floors blog post is terribly self-unaware. It seems it has been taken down ( http://blog.42floors.com/interviewing-at-a-startup/ ), or is someone getting content?

You can read it at the Way Back Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140618142018/http://blog.42flo...

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#210

Post by ido »

gaius wrote: post #201
ido wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Germany and spent almost 8 years in Austria before that & that (60k gbp = 75k eur) would be considered a very good salary for a senior dev here.

It is pointless to compare raw numbers without also considering cost of living. Rent, travel, food, entertainment, etc are all expensive in London.

Actually I think only rent and public transit are more expensive. Food and entertainment are cheaper than in mainland western Europe and flights from London are pretty cheap as well.

But it's true that the overall cost of living is still much higher than anywhere else in the EU (save maybe Copenhagen or Zurich).

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