Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care • Hacker News Board

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#201

Post by autokad » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:42 PM UTC

Aqueous wrote: post #134

x0054 wrote: post #92

It is stunning that a public school teacher apparently makes almost 2x what a college teacher makes, at least in California. Mind you, I am not arguing that school teachers should make less, collage profs should make more. This is amazing though, were is the money going. Anecdotally, I think a lot of the money is spent on outside services through a corrupt bidding process. Back in 2008 I used to run a document scanni…

Yes. I worked for a university briefly as a staff member. Our university sung far and wide about how it just raised $400 million for its endowment in its most recent fundraising campaign, and yet, it couldn't afford to pay me more than a $25,000 salary in the IT department. How on earth is this possible? It's probably in all the unseen costs they pay out in contracts to subcontractors. But another clue might be this:…

staff are generally thought of as costs and universities try to pay them as little as possible expecting high turnover. at least that's my assumption based on their actions.

with adjuncts it depends on the major and class. the whole idea is that they are not full time, so if a person chooses JUST to do that , then I am not surprised they have a hard time getting by. I have a full time job and adjunct (the adjunct position pays pretty good), but from what I observed adjuncts make more for their time than joining the reserves.

I dont know how the hours and the workload worked out for the french teacher, but usually a class is either 13 3 hour courses or 26 1.5 hour ones. thats about 40 hours for the semester. the outside of class time really varies on subject, years of teaching the course, the students, etc. I generally expect to spend 1-2x the time of the class with outside of class time.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#202

Post by infinite8s » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:48 PM UTC

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #196

colanderman wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's how this goes: 1. Person X buys land because they need to live. 2. X asks real estate broker, "Don't I need air rights too?" Broker says "nah, the air's clean around here". (It is.) 3. Industry Y decides to move into town. Buys up all the unsold air rights from the broker (maybe with a little kickback). (Industry Y sells widgets, of which everyone needs an endless supply.) 4. Industry Y does what industries do…

1. Air rights needn't be tied to land. A proportional share could be automatically inherited by each citizen upon birth. 2. Existing water rights in the US have as much to do with free markets as they did in the USSR.

How do you enforce these air rights when they've been violated by a polluter?

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#203

Post by ahomescu1 » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 1:49 PM UTC

inthewoods wrote: post #200

majika wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smaller governments (i.e. less power, shallower hierarchies), good voting systems, and an informed public are the answer; not avoiding government altogether. Libertarianism (i.e. absolute belief in the capitalist market and private property) doesn't work, because the markets don't reflect negative externalities like pollution, over-harvesting, misinformation, or antibiotics misuse. States need to exist to manipulate…

"and an informed public are the answer; not avoiding government altogether." One small edit - an informed AND ENGAGED public. We now have a perfect cycle in the US. - Government isn't working, so people believe government can't work. - Government can't work in the future because very few participate. Wash, rinse, repeat - and remove funding for education while you're going along to make sure people are not getting in…

> Government can't work in the future because very few participate.

Also, it feels to me that "participate" has lost half its meaning: people think voting is enough. IMHO, the other half of participation is running for office. Many people complain about all candidates presented before them, but wouldn't put in the work to run themselves.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#204

Post by jameshart » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 2:04 PM UTC

x0054 wrote: post #92

It is stunning that a public school teacher apparently makes almost 2x what a college teacher makes, at least in California. Mind you, I am not arguing that school teachers should make less, collage profs should make more. This is amazing though, were is the money going. Anecdotally, I think a lot of the money is spent on outside services through a corrupt bidding process. Back in 2008 I used to run a document scanni…

Teaching adults who are there voluntarily is a far lower level of responsibility than teaching kids who have no choice. Each child in a public school has, generally, one shot at each year's worth of curriculum, and if they don't get it it could set them back for a lifetime. Grade school teachers are being paid to contribute to the upbringing of the kids in their charge; college teachers' responsibilities basically amount to telling some people about some things they know.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#205

Post by thejdude » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 2:08 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #113

ams6110 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at another Big Ten IT division. The amount of productive work per salary dollar would shock anyone in the start-up or corporate sector. Staff would roll in from 9:00 to 10:00AM, surf the web or fool around with some toys for a couple of hours, take a 90 minute lunch, go to a few meetings, and be out the door at 4:30 or 5:00PM. A lot of these people making 6 figures or close to it in a town where that is a VE…

In all of Europe 4 weeks of paid holidays and a regular 8-hour workday are the norm. And university is free or very affordable. What I'm saying is that poor working conditions and crippling student debt is a policy choice.

I agree, except that people in Europe aren't paid for their holidays, but for their work. Companies are simply mandated to give you 4 weeks+ off per year - that money is of course deducted from what they would pay you otherwise.

Not saying that is a bad thing; actually, it probably improves overall productivity vs the US model. But it's not a free lunch, and it's not the employer's charity - it's the money people actually worked for, equally distributed over working days and holi-days.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#206

Post by thejdude » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 2:12 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #169

zanny wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because some of them would do it for free if they had some other way to eat. Then I fail to see what the problem is. Obviously, there is an oversupply of teaching staff, or else wages would be higher since good professors would be a scarce commodity. That obviously is not the case, thus wages fall. I guess when you have an excess of a generation going to college on false debt, you get an excess of teachers too. I'd…

>Then I fail to see what the problem is. That's because you're thinking like a market rather than a human being.

Wow. HN really IS the reddit of a few years ago... You can have your opinion, but if you can't behave in public, please bury your ad-hominem s___ in someone else's backyard.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#207

Post by mercurial » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 2:13 PM UTC

grondilu wrote: post #133

Jtsummers wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of good educators do this. And that's part of the problem. Private tutoring and online classes don't reach the masses of students. I mean, if we want to deliberately exclude the majority of the population from being able to receive an education, then sure, let's go this way.

If you think college teachers should be well paid, it means you think college education is worth a lot. If you think it's worth a lot, then it means it is expensive. If it is expensive, it makes sense that lots of people can't afford it. You can't pay teachers a lot if you have them teach poor people. Otherwise where is the money supposed to come from?

Taxes.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#208

Post by shabadoop » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 2:16 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #168

tn13 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do not get paid based on how much money the business makes. On the other hand they get paid based on how much value they add. Someone whose skill is French Language is surely is not much worth compared to someone who knows how to make pancakes. I will not be surprised that a lot of college teachers teaching skills of no use are finding it hard to make enough money.

> On the other hand they get paid based on how much value they add. Nope. That only happens if they're scarce. If they aren't scarce (or are otherwise deleveraged) they get paid minimum wage regardless of the value they create. > Someone whose skill is French Language is surely is not much worth compared to someone who knows how to make pancakes. You seem to be awfully certain of that. Unless you meant to assume what…

Well, there is a huge surplus of PhD's in every field, and there is less industry demand for certain fields (French Lit, for example). This seems like a classic situation where certification in a professional association should be required to teach college, so there can be better collective bargaining at a national scale.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#209

Post by thejdude » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 2:21 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #59

jdreaver wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such little regulation? Harsh capitalism? Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. Most university students go to public schools. Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government. Harsh capitalism would be harsh on the universities who cling to a dying lecture/exam model that hasn't evolved for…

> Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Obviously not propped enough if this professor died in poverty and students need 6 figure loans to graduate. > Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. As opposed to what? Controlled by Coca-Cola? Starbucks? -- "Do you have a degree?" -- "I sure do, I graduated with MS in coffee arts (MsCA) from Starbucks University, Phoen…

> "Do you have a degree?" -- "I sure do, I graduated with MS in coffee arts (MsCA) from Starbucks University, Phoenix". Or just got a "PhD in applied lobbying from Lockheed".

Not arguing against public funding of education, but you're making a nice point about the inherent BS of degrees that exist merely on paper.

Nobody actually cares about that piece of paper - employers want to know what you DID and what you're CAPABLE of.

A college degree used to be reasonable proof of peoples' abilities, but today conflating the two usually doesn't help. Thus post-college unemployment, or idiots running companies from nice positions.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#210

Post by randallsquared » Sat, Jun 21, 2014, 2:23 PM UTC

majika wrote: post #150

nugget wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw examples like this over and over when I worked with Government, and it's ultimately what pushed me to embrace libertarianism. Government usually has great intentions, but those intentions are often overwhelmed by the perverse micro incentives of the human beings, driven by basic human nature, who run everything at the ground level.

Smaller governments (i.e. less power, shallower hierarchies), good voting systems, and an informed public are the answer; not avoiding government altogether. Libertarianism (i.e. absolute belief in the capitalist market and private property) doesn't work, because the markets don't reflect negative externalities like pollution, over-harvesting, misinformation, or antibiotics misuse. States need to exist to manipulate…

> Smaller governments (i.e. less power, shallower hierarchies), good voting systems, and an informed public are the answer; not avoiding government altogether.

> Libertarianism (i.e. absolute belief in the capitalist market and private property) doesn't work, [...]

For the vast majority of (US) libertarians, libertarianism is the first sentence, not the second. Only a small group of libertarians are free-market anarchists.