Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care • Hacker News Board

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#51

Post by spikels » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:23 PM UTC

goldfeld wrote: post #2

These basal, fundamental flaws in the educational system give me pause to awe, and a gut feeling the US is gonna get trampled many times over by the likes of China within some decades. So little regulation and such harsh capitalism is eating its heart out bit by bit. I guess what keeps America bright at this point is a legacy from the past century, that's slowly eroding, and the brain drain sucked chiefly out of Asia…

Your ideology is getting in the way of clear thinking. Good luck on your prediction on China's future prowess in the education of non-Chinese students. Lack of government regulation (and financing) is probably the opposite of the problem in the US (do you realize that most US colleges are run by state governments?).

Ideological blindness aside there is something wrong when education costs more and more but the instructors are paid less and less.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#52

Post by esrauch » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #46

goldfeld wrote: post #2

These basal, fundamental flaws in the educational system give me pause to awe, and a gut feeling the US is gonna get trampled many times over by the likes of China within some decades. So little regulation and such harsh capitalism is eating its heart out bit by bit. I guess what keeps America bright at this point is a legacy from the past century, that's slowly eroding, and the brain drain sucked chiefly out of Asia…

Such little regulation? Harsh capitalism? Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. Most university students go to public schools. Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government. Harsh capitalism would be harsh on the universities who cling to a dying lecture/exam model that hasn't evolved for…

Is it actually better for students that they can't default on their loans? I usually hear it the opposite way, that even after bankruptcy proceedings you still have your student loan debt following you around.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#53

Post by bradleyjg » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #21

tammer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very clear where it's going. The number of administrative staff at colleges and universities have skyrocketed in the past 30 years. Just like in the corporate world, corruption and the proliferation of unnecessary management have sucked revenue to the top. http://www.salon.com/2014/06/08/colleges_are_full_of_it_behi...

I took a look at CMU's financials and it definitely looks like the money is going towards salaries. They don't offer a breakdown between the different kinds of salaries, naturally. Does anyone know of a representative dataset (by "representative" I mean "not the UC system, not an ivy with >$10b endowment, etc") that would include this information? https://www.cmu.edu/finance/reporting-and-incoming-funds/fin...

There's a bunch of relevant data in this paper, albeit from 2008 (starting on 21): http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2153122

Here's a summary of the conclusions

A recent study by two professors of economics attempts to arrive at the ideal ratio of tenured and tenure-track faculty to administrators in order to operate effectively. Analyzing data from 137 public universities from 1987 through 2008, they found that on average the ratio was two administrators to one full-time faculty member when the most cost-effective ratio is one administrator for every three full-time faculty members. They found that an imbalance between administrators and faculty where administrators outnumber faculty is what accounts for the rise in costs. Administrators and non-instructional staff have continued to rise despite less state funding. Furthermore, more part-time faculty are being hired at very low wages to offset the costs of administrators whose salaries tend to be much higher than faculty. Critics argue that the ratio should not be applied universally, as different types of universities have different needs when it comes to instructional vs. supervisory staff. But many agree that the goal of higher education is to focus on those who are in the classroom and not those pursuing an agenda of business development.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#54

Post by tehwalrus » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #46

goldfeld wrote: post #2

These basal, fundamental flaws in the educational system give me pause to awe, and a gut feeling the US is gonna get trampled many times over by the likes of China within some decades. So little regulation and such harsh capitalism is eating its heart out bit by bit. I guess what keeps America bright at this point is a legacy from the past century, that's slowly eroding, and the brain drain sucked chiefly out of Asia…

Such little regulation? Harsh capitalism? Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. Most university students go to public schools. Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government. Harsh capitalism would be harsh on the universities who cling to a dying lecture/exam model that hasn't evolved for…

Government (university) administrators can be (forced to be) heartless capitalists too, you know.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#55

Post by tolmasky » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

goldfeld wrote: post #2

These basal, fundamental flaws in the educational system give me pause to awe, and a gut feeling the US is gonna get trampled many times over by the likes of China within some decades. So little regulation and such harsh capitalism is eating its heart out bit by bit. I guess what keeps America bright at this point is a legacy from the past century, that's slowly eroding, and the brain drain sucked chiefly out of Asia…

So our lack of regulation will leave us susceptible to... China's notorious lack of regulation and corruption? Most of China's "advantages" in the last decades have been thanks to e.g. their ability to pay slave labor wages (vs our minimum wage laws), their ability to have horrible work conditions (vs our regulations), etc etc. We may "lose" to China, but I assure you it won't be because we're less regulated of more capitalistic.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#56

Post by __xtrimsky » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:28 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #50

ryen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for these numbers? $100/hr is highly suspect for "students that graduated last year and were helping out as teachers".

Define "hour". Hour in the classroom? Possibly. Assume a 12 week semester and 6 hours per week. Last time I taught a semester, I got about $5,000, so that is nominally $70 per hour. However, that doesn't count time answering student questions. That doesn't count office hours. That doesn't count making up homework or tests and grading them. For me, each class I teach is about 40 hours of work per week. If that is your…

In my case it was hour in the classroom.

It did not account for answering questions by email, it did not account for grading them.

As I wrote below, if a teacher taught 8 hours of a class at 100$ / hr, he would be paid 800$, even if he has to spend 10 extra hours grading a student.

But to be honest they weren't giving that much homework, and only one test at the end of the class. I'd estimate for every 80 hours taught, there might have been only 10-15 extra hours. Which for 100$/hr or 300$/hr is worth it.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#57

Post by liveoneggs » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:35 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #46

goldfeld wrote: post #2

These basal, fundamental flaws in the educational system give me pause to awe, and a gut feeling the US is gonna get trampled many times over by the likes of China within some decades. So little regulation and such harsh capitalism is eating its heart out bit by bit. I guess what keeps America bright at this point is a legacy from the past century, that's slowly eroding, and the brain drain sucked chiefly out of Asia…

Such little regulation? Harsh capitalism? Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. Most university students go to public schools. Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government. Harsh capitalism would be harsh on the universities who cling to a dying lecture/exam model that hasn't evolved for…

what, exactly, is better than lectures and exams?

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#58

Post by throwketchup » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:35 PM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #10

cheepin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research, Sports, executive salaries. There are a lot of costs besides teacher's salaries.

I thought research was funded through grants and sports was self funding?

Research is typically a profit center for the university. The standard cut (known as "overhead" in the biz) is 30% of research grants. Capital equipment (typically defined as stuff costing more than X dollars) is taxed at a lower rate (usually 10%). Research assistantships are also charged 30%. Also, any modification to lab facilities (electrical or carpentry for example) is usually required to be performed by university staff at a cost (to the grant) of around 2 to 3 times union rates.

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#59

Post by rdtsc » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:36 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #46

goldfeld wrote: post #2

These basal, fundamental flaws in the educational system give me pause to awe, and a gut feeling the US is gonna get trampled many times over by the likes of China within some decades. So little regulation and such harsh capitalism is eating its heart out bit by bit. I guess what keeps America bright at this point is a legacy from the past century, that's slowly eroding, and the brain drain sucked chiefly out of Asia…

Such little regulation? Harsh capitalism? Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government. Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government. Most university students go to public schools. Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government. Harsh capitalism would be harsh on the universities who cling to a dying lecture/exam model that hasn't evolved for…

> Our education system is propped up chiefly because of government.

Obviously not propped enough if this professor died in poverty and students need 6 figure loans to graduate.

> Most of the US goes to public schools, controlled by the government.

As opposed to what? Controlled by Coca-Cola? Starbucks? -- "Do you have a degree?" -- "I sure do, I graduated with MS in coffee arts (MsCA) from Starbucks University, Phoenix". Or just got a "PhD in applied lobbying from Lockheed".

> Students get ridiculous loans they can't default on, courtesy of the government.

The problem is not to just stop giving loans, but let people go to universities without needing loans. If Universities are public, they should admit based on merit. And instead of cycling money through govt to student to university, just subsidize the university and make sure it doesn't spend money on admin assistants, triple layers of bureaucracy, new gyms with lazy rivers and other crap that is not needed. Maybe if it is too hard, just increase % of admitted students based on merit, some that couldn't quite make it and are rich perhaps could buy their way in.

> maybe regulation and government caused the problem in the first place.

Can you point to an example of an attested and well functioning higher learning system not regulated and propped by a government?

Re: Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and everyone should care

#60

Post by Jtsummers » Fri, Jun 20, 2014, 10:37 PM UTC

programmarchy wrote: post #42

jonhinson wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Common Core, a set of standards that can voluntarily be adopted by states, equivalent to regulation?

Sorry, I was thinking about No Child Left Behind, which was an Act of Congress. You're right -- Common Core is implemented differently. From what I know, it was mainly drafted up by testing corporations, but has the support of the Obama administration. Since the federal government has levers and dials it can use (i.e. fines, penalties, withholding grants, etc.) then it seems to me like the end result will be the same…

Common Core was one standard that states could adopt, and they could also develop their own, that would satisfy requirements to gain additional funding. Essentially, the Feds said: Improve your curricula because what's out there sucks, if you do, we'll give you a bonus.

Texas and others developed their own standards, for example.