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Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

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Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#201
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I realize that most of the people want that. But I believe that if we try and take the quick route it will over time only make the situation worse. Of course, you are correct in your statement that men outnumber women in the field of IT. But I disagree with the statement that we have to do anything special about that unless that special thing is the golden rule to treat others how you want be treated yourself. I…

> that special thing is the golden rule to treat others how you want be treated yourself. Unless you have some magical way of forcing everyone to suddenly drop their prejudices, then there is a need for social activism. Sorry if that inconveniences you. Your entire argument is a straw man. Who are these women being given more than a fair chance? Bear in mind that the purpose of this "Female Founders" event is to show…

>Unless you have some magical way of forcing everyone to suddenly drop their prejudices, then there is a need for social activism.

Predicated on what? What's your proof that such prejudices exist, or that they're applied more so to women than men? Furthermore, what's your proof that discrimination is the form of social activism required to fix this unproved prejudice?

In any debate around this issue there seems to be a lot of working backwards from the evidence to whatever theory the commenter personally supports. People who want to believe that prejudice and sexism 'keep women down' cite the fact that men are predominant in tech. People who want to believe that men are more predisposed to enter tech than women cite the exact same evidence. This isn't how logic works. Unfortunately for the latter group, it's not possible to prove a negative (i.e. the absence of sexism), so the former group will actually have to present evidence showing that prejudice is the best explanation for the gender gap in tech.

>Who are these women being given more than a fair chance?

Ignoring the facile pretense that every tech event is somehow exclusive to men simply because more men choose to attend, I'd start off by saying that this event -- this event which is enforced as exclusively women-only -- is evidence of women being given gender-based advantages. It requires Orwellian levels of double-think to look at a female-only event and pretend such a thing isn't sexist, while at the same time decrying the sexism in tech from the mere unexplained fact that tech contains more men than women. But this event is too hot an issue for both sides for either party to concede that it's proof or disproof of a female advantage in tech.

Instead, I'd ask what you think constitutes fair, and what constitutes equality? It seems that the answer to this question is what really divides the two sides in this debate. I -- and I assume most who think events like this are destructive -- would answer that fairness and equality relate to negative freedom: the freedom from someone restraining you from pursuing your goals i.e. we would all be more equal if the only thing which stood between us and our goals were our own skill (or lack thereof). If you disagree with this goal, could explain why? And if you do not disagree with this goal, could you explain how you justify discriminatory events? (And if you could do so without sarcasm, that'd be fantastic, thanks.)

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#202
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is 50% correct? Why was that right and later lower values wrong? What is the rationale?

It's not that the numbers are "right" or "wrong." It's that the data shows there is nothing inherent about computer science that excludes women. So if women are not interested these days, there is something about the current state of affairs that is creating the friction. What we are doing here is rejecting the hypothesis "Women are simply, as a matter of nature, disinclined to go into computer science." "Right" and…

I don't actually think women are unsuited for CS, but I must say that I don't find the argument that 'in the past more women were in CS' very compelling, because it makes the pretense that all variables have remained constant over the past 40 years.

The fact is that CS -- or what people on HN call CS -- has changed massively in 40 years. For instance, startups barely even existed 40 years ago, and they certainly weren't as hyped as they are now. Furthermore, gender roles have changed in the past 40 years, as has female college admission.

There's something ironically conservative in democrat-styled liberals' [0] harking back to the CS of yesteryear where gender equality was the norm. Societies change, as do fields of work. If I had to take a pundit's guess at the reason, I'd probably say that we have similar raw numbers of women in the field now as then, but more men have flocked to the field as it's proved itself as an excellent means of generating wealth, thus upsetting the ratio.

In all honesty, if I were to guess at the reason there aren't many women in CS, I'd say it's because women don't tend to care as much as men do about generating wealth. Warren Farrell's 'Why Men Earn More' came to similar conclusions: that men are more disposed to taking nastier, more stressful jobs if the pay will be higher. If this is indeed the case, then it would seem that the easiest way to attract women to tech would be to get everyone -- irrespective of gender -- involved in CS at a young age, and allow them to see how fun it can be. If women genuinely do choose to work in careers that they find fulfilling, then this would achieve the goal of increasing the numbers of women in tech without having to discriminate in any way, simply by getting more women to self-select into tech.

[0] I must say, from the point of view of a UK liberal, there doesn't seem to be much liberalism in the US definition of the term. It seems closer to socialism from where I'm standing, with its heaps of top-down reforms and regulations. Yes, this is irrelevant, and no I'm not willing to defend this statement, since -- as a UK citizen -- I have no dog in this race.

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful with that. You saw what happened to Larry Summers, right? Seriously, I take your point about the differences between men and women. I saw the news tidbit a few weeks ago about the study on toddlers and the toys they prefer. I'm willing to treat those studies objectively. Yet in the case I cited, fewer than three percent of attendees at a technical conference were women. "Predispositions to excel" or not, that…

Without looking into it the percentage that suggests no prejudice is unknown, so we don't actually know if 3% is where it 'should' be for that to be true, or the much assumed 50%. It has no basis in fact is my point really. And I'm uncomfortable in applying sexism as a solution to perceived sexism. Im confused why everyone isn't uncomfortable with that.

If I had to put my cynic hat on (oh who am I kidding? I never took it off) I'd say it's because the people who're 'comfortable' with any form of discrimination tend to benefit from it.

The men currently in tech who support pro-female discrimination aren't going to be affected by it: they're already in tech, and they already had a chance to enter it before their asinine discriminatory policies came into effect. They benefit from feeling they've achieved some good (irrespective of whether they actually have). The same is true of powerful people who aren't dependent on an equal playing field, such as politicians, the wealthy, and current business leaders. Such people won't be affected by proposing a piss-poor solution, so if they can feel like a champ for doing so, then they'll do so.

A less cynical view is that such people are simply bad at logic; that they don't understand that you form theories from evidence, rather than using evidence to support theories. The trouble with all gender politics is that it's too emotional an issue. All parties feel threatened, and all parties feel that they're the ones being shafted. In an atmosphere so hostile to reason, I'm just grateful that no-one has jumped to gulags and gas chambers as a solution. Oh wait... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Cutting_Up_Men

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You saw there was a study in the AMS Notices a few years after the fact that said 'actually Larry Summers is full of shit, here's the data,' right?

Getting downvoted for this, so I'll just drop some facts here: http://www.ams.org/notices/201201/rtx120100010p.pdf

That's an interesting paper. I am not a statistician or professional scientist, however, I was surprised at the amount of story telling involved in their analyses, and how often they would exclude certain data based on those stories. Is doing this common in studies like this? It seems one could make the same data say anything by using this approach.

I am particularly perplexed by their discussion of what they term "the variability hypothesis", which states that because:

1- a higher statistical variance in the distribution of some attribute in one population vs another population leads to a larger difference in relative representation of the two populations the further from the mean you go (this is true a priori), and

2- men have a higher variance in "math ability" compared to women,

then we will observe a significant difference in representation between the sexes at very high levels of ability. The authors mention that there is in fact a negative correlation between gender inequality and variance in ability (i.e. the more equal a society is, by their metrics, the higher the difference in variance in performance is between the sexes), which seems to elegantly support the variability hypothesis, to my understanding. I wonder if there has been any follow-up to this paper?

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#205
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. Let's hear your proposal for addressing the already segregationist technology industry. Let's hear your proposal for elevating female/non-white founder percentages out of the single digits. What've you got?

> Let's hear your proposal for addressing the already segregationist technology industry. Stop supporting segregationist policies.

Isn't a conference for just Pythonistas considered segregation?

Definition of segregation for your convenience:

the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#206
pg, please thank Jessica for putting this event on. My girlfriend is on her way to starting her first company after years successfully being one of the few women in the private equity sector as well as her graduate program at Stanford. I've only just watched the keynote from Jessica and this is exactly the message that not only she, but I, need to hear about starting a company (tech and/or financial for that matter). Hearing these stories builds confidence and it's what both of us need.

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"men considerably outnumber women. We (and I mean the egalitarian "we") have to do something about that." Why? What is that evidence of? You assume sexism presumably. Men and women are different and have predispositions to excel in different areas. You know what would be really weird? A 50/50 split. Why is that the definition of correct? Why are so few people rational about this?

Careful with that. You saw what happened to Larry Summers, right? Seriously, I take your point about the differences between men and women. I saw the news tidbit a few weeks ago about the study on toddlers and the toys they prefer. I'm willing to treat those studies objectively. Yet in the case I cited, fewer than three percent of attendees at a technical conference were women. "Predispositions to excel" or not, that…

Curious, what was the toddler study?

I'm skeptical when studies like that make claims about "intrinsic" gender differences because boys and girls are treated differently by adults pretty much as soon as they're born. Girls are told their dress is so pretty, boys are told they're so big, etc. I think of it kind of like, "Hey, don't you want to play with trucks? You really want to play with trucks, don't you?" And then — big surprise — two-year-old boys like trucks.

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#208
post #23

To all the people kvetching in the comments... this is the live stream for "YC's Female Founders Conference" [1]. That's why "female" is in the post title. I'm an ardent supporter of the effort, and I hope (much like startup school) that YC is able to make it into an annual event! Very inspiring! Also, my wife is in attendance. I look forward to hearing her reactions later tonight. If the live stream is any indicator…

When people start whining about events or programs like this, I like to send them off to read "When I Moved Abroad"[1], a blog post by that was like flipping a switch in my mind that suddenly made these things make so much more sense. [1] https://blog.mozilla.org/it/2013/03/29/when-i-moved-abroad/

As someone who has lived for fairly long periods in a country that is not mine, this is exactly the sort of thing I seek to avoid. I try to hang out with the people from the region, not people who I already can speak to in a familiar language. I try to absorb the local cultural contrasts and not try to shoehorn them into my own. ("Tell me again what the traditional Garistan Christmas cake is? " -- Maybe they don't celebrate Christmas? Could it just be possible that they belong to another culture / religion?)

Always sticking with your own lot and never completely opening up to a new culture (in my opinion) isolates you and makes you look standoffish.

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#209
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I realize that most of the people want that. But I believe that if we try and take the quick route it will over time only make the situation worse. Of course, you are correct in your statement that men outnumber women in the field of IT. But I disagree with the statement that we have to do anything special about that unless that special thing is the golden rule to treat others how you want be treated yourself. I…

> that special thing is the golden rule to treat others how you want be treated yourself. Unless you have some magical way of forcing everyone to suddenly drop their prejudices, then there is a need for social activism. Sorry if that inconveniences you. Your entire argument is a straw man. Who are these women being given more than a fair chance? Bear in mind that the purpose of this "Female Founders" event is to show…

No, my entire argument is about convincing people that events like these are sexist events and does not belong in an equal society. My experience is not that people have prejudices against females. My experience is that people rely on prejudices to exist in order to make sexist events "ok" or even "good".

Maybe female founders inspire women which is completely fine and maybe almost all the other founders events would qualify for a "male founders" event. But it doesn't change that there probably is a lot people that want to attend and being recognized not welcomed since they have the wrong gender which is kind of the core of sexism.

My absolute main point is that sexist events are not ok whatever you like to dress it up as. My second main point is that I felt the sexism my entire life and every time it happens it disgusts me and if it continues I am afraid that I will become very sexist myself even if I'd like not to. I am seriously afraid for it to come to a point were protecting my interests means being sexist to people that did not have anything to do with the sexism inflicted on me.

Re: Y Combinator Female Founders Conference LiveStream

#210

I dislike the fact that females get a lot more attention because of their gender. If you want true equality you've to start treating everybody as equals and giving extra space for some just doesn't cut it. I see this all the time in my country (I don't know if this is the case here) but females get a lot more attention in basically all areas of society and I don't think much good can come from that. Well, I guess I'm…

I am awfully backwards in this; I still use the common dictionary definition of "feminism", meaning "advocating social and political equality of genders", which I understand has now fallen out of common use.

On the assumption that you mean something else when you say "feminism", what do you mean?

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