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Girls Who Code

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Re: Girls Who Code

#201
> Paul asks "God knows what you would do to get 13 year old girls interested in computers?"

(My comment, repeated from the other similar thread that got go superseded by this one)

The problem of getting anyone, young or adult, interested in a subject --any subject-- isn't one with a simple solution. Technical subjects have the added difficulty that they require you to use your brain in non-trivial ways. Given equal exposure to the subject matter, I fail to see how a male or female subject would react differently to the idea of learning that subject. This, of course, assuming that both the male and female subjects got to that moment in time with a similar educational and perhaps even cultural frame of reference. If a mother only ever bought a little girl frilly pink and shiny things, well, it is probably unlikely that as a teenage girl or an adult woman she would even remotely show interest in learning more technical subjects. She will probably be a dancer and go into the arts or some other less "brainy" occupation. That's not to say that there aren't exceptions to this, but they are probably few and far between.

The same is true of boys. If they are brought-up in front of a playstation, shooting at things, playing sports, and well outside of more academically focused areas he will probably grow up to be a jock and then move on to careers that do well when you use half your brain. Hell, he might even go into sales! Things are vastly different if you feed your kids a constant diet of what they should be learning in order to operate at a different level when they are older. My teenage son finished MIT's CS 6.00.1x course just a few weeks ago. That did not happen magically. That was a lot of work. For me and for him! And that also required a lot of work to get to the point where he could even be shoved into that end of the pool.

My little girl is too young to think about formal learning of these kinds of subject, but this year she got introduced to Lego robotics and is starting to like it. Yet, the situation is exactly the same: It requires a ton of time and dedication on my part --as the designated nerd at home-- to keep her exposed to such subjects and make it fun. I have to get silly while teaching something useful. I have to figure out ways to make robotics fun, silly, exciting and something she wants to do. We don't buy lots of silly frilly things for her. That said, I have to tell you, it is hard to fight both genetics and exposure to such things through her peers.

I guess my message is that parents needs to be very engaged and active in bringing up a child into the sciences and technology. It will not happen by osmosis. And, I really don't think gender makes a huge difference. It might change the approach, but I don't think it is the primary determinant of success or failure. One way I've explained this in the past to friends who marvel at what my kids are doing is that this is like a Formula 1 car drafting a car in front of them. You need to drive well and use a lot of effort to get close enough to be within the zone where drafting happens. Up until that point you are using a lot more energy to chase the car in front of you. Once you get into the drafting zone you need less power to maintain the same speed. Yet, you still need that foot solidly planted on the accelerator.

With kids you have to push, push, push. I have navigated through really frustrating moments when I've gotten angry because I couldn't understand why he (my oldest son) didn't just grab that book I bought for him and launched himself into software development nirvana. Of course, I always reflected upon these things and never externalized them --not much of a motivator to yell and scream at your kid about learning something-- and realized that (a) he is still young and (b) we are not in the "draft zone" yet. It'll take a lot more effort --and this is different from kid to kid-- to get him into the "draft zone". Once we reach that zone it will require a lot less energy on my part and, if interested, he will ultimately need virtually no support from me.

This is where I look at some of the things being said about STEM education and can't help but think we are just throwing money into a big bonfire. You can't force people into learning anything. A lot of my kid's friends are, well, jocks or exhibit no interest in anything at all. They are navigating through school with no guidance or encouragement in any direction whatsoever. You can't just throw money at that and expect things to change. For most kids it requires far more work than can be done during the time they are at school. Yes, of course, there are a few kids in every sample group that need almost zero work. These kids get hooked on a subject like programming and just go, go , go. Most kids are not like that. Just like most successful businesses did not get launched with a long coding session over a weekend while eating popcorn.

Going back to my little girl, she is not seriously exposed to Lego robotics. In fact, our living room table is an official FLL table with the official field mat and everything. Yes, we are serious about this. I'd rather have a learning environment in my living room than a fancy dinning room table. As far as why there aren't more women in tech today. I don't have the answer for that. I only know that when I was a teenager girls mostly did different stuff. Not because they were being forced away from tech, they simply showed no interest in what we were doing. My guess is that it all came from home. So, as our culture changes so will that aspect of things.

Evolution?

Re: Girls Who Code

#202

One fascinating aspect of this is how bad the post 1990 startup culture has been for women. There was something about those big, boring corporations of the 1970s and 1980s that actually gave female hackers more acceptance than what startups have offered. You can see female interest in programming change in the charts on these pages: http://blogs.computerworld.com/it-careers/21993/women-comput... Note that those graph…

Maybe I'm being too dramatic, but I see the concept of "cultural fit" as highly toxic and counterproductive, and that's without taking into account that (IMHO) it reflects some kind of fear and insecurity on those who promote it, who seem to be wary of being surrounded by different kinds of people. The effect on women who could potentially get into coding is just one of the multiple effects (although maybe the most prominent).

Re: Girls Who Code

#203
post #15
post #10

> There is a lot of systemic bias in the system against young women taking this kind of direction with their studies and their career. I understand there is cultural bias, but systemic? There are more women attending and graduating college than men, they're more economically prosperous in their early twenties as well.[1] [1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/27/young-w...

Yes, because they are very well represented in the traditional professions: law, accounting, and medicine. They are not well represented in computer software. That's what we're talking about. Go to a crypto conference sometime. If, like me, you hail from computer software and not from academic cryptography and mathematics, you will probably be surprised at how much better women are represented there than in software.…

>They are not well represented in computer software

Are they "well represented" in any skilled trade? Why is this one specific skilled trade such a unique cause for concern and inventing crazy reasons to blame the people in the trade?

Re: Girls Who Code

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Prove that you're not a witch" is a very old tactic - and it's the opposite of the modern standard of guilt.

The "mismatch" in dialog about this stuff is perhaps telling. One person says (essentially): "organization need to take systematic efforts to avoid bias in hiring". The other person say (essentially): "you can't prove we're sexist, this is a witch hunt".

Unfortunately, we have a bunch of experience with statistically-based bias measures, and it often turns out to be exactly "prove you're not a witch" scenario. While in this particular case failure to prove probably leads to nothing but a blog post or a comment or two, in many other cases it leads to regulations and enforcement actions that can be very unpleasant for the target.

It can have some justifications where we know the bias exists. However, in this case we do not know it, so when people feel the onus of the proof put on them, they don't like it.

Re: Girls Who Code

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Prove that you're not a witch" is a very old tactic - and it's the opposite of the modern standard of guilt.

The "mismatch" in dialog about this stuff is perhaps telling. One person says (essentially): "organization need to take systematic efforts to avoid bias in hiring". The other person say (essentially): "you can't prove we're sexist, this is a witch hunt".

[deleted]

Re: Girls Who Code

#206
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? I was telling a story from my personal experience to try to demonstrate how that statement (in isolation) reeks of privilege. It does not reek of male privilege, which I'm admittedly less sensitive to than class privilege. But imagine growing up surrounded by people telling you to "Stop with all that computer stuff. That's nerdy boy stuff. Boys won't like you if you're into that." Or parents who refuse to buy the…

But if anything your own example seems to reaffirm pg's point. You fished a computer out of a garbage bin and therefore had some coding experience before university age. You found it on your own. PG observes that this is 'invariably' a quality of the most successful founders and therefore (presumably) one which he looks for in prospective founders.

Yeah, I'm not going to play Calvinball with you. Sorry!

Re: Girls Who Code

#207
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. This is not a social thing. This is not hard core research requiring millions to get started. Only a PC, Stack Overflow and an internet connection are required. Even now on HN I cannot tell who is a girl or guy by their username, let alone the gender of the person who wrote the code that populates the webpage I read.

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself , would do — say that it was all on them…

> disgustingly ignorant[....] sheer obliviousness[...] privilege[....] awful.

Do not expect shaming attempts to substitute for an argument here. Taking offense can't make you right.

There's the industry and then there's the calling. If they share my obsession, where is their mountain of hobby projects for getting it out of their system when their day jobs do not?

Re: Girls Who Code

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. One person says, "We deliberately handle women with kid gloves. A under-qualified woman has a better chance than an under-qualified man." A feminist activist responds, "But you still hire more men! Therefore, it's almost a given that you're biased against women in other ways. Fix it." The original person says, "Wow. We just can't win with you people."

If that happened, I could understand it. If you claim the thread above is summarized by that, you're hallucinating. I simply said that bias can be invisible and it useful to have formal methods for catching it. I don't see myself as a "feminist activist" by any means. I think the feminist activists who do sometimes uncritically toss around accusations of bias aren't really helping. But when I notice people reading my…

> but the argument seems involve the claim that some people have no need for formal methods to correct their biases. I beg to differ, everyone needs that

Demanding that everyone has a formal method to correct biases only provable in statistics, really do go back to the "Prove that you're not a witch" argument a few comments ago. The exact same proof can be found against different color of skin, names and clothes. It can be found in parents who has more than one children. Statistical proven biases exist everywhere.

Yet, a formal method should only really be needed once the bias is found to actually exist on a individual level. Everything else would be insane.

Re: Girls Who Code

#209
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if anything your own example seems to reaffirm pg's point. You fished a computer out of a garbage bin and therefore had some coding experience before university age. You found it on your own. PG observes that this is 'invariably' a quality of the most successful founders and therefore (presumably) one which he looks for in prospective founders.

Yeah, I'm not going to play Calvinball with you. Sorry!

I guess it was a privilege arguing with you.

Re: Girls Who Code

#210
post #110
post #53

In tech, saying anything about gender is an opportunity to be lambasted vigorously. But I think I can contribute something. Having read what I could over the years on the academic side of "women in tech" (i.e., academic research studying the matter, rather than opinion pieces), the consensus seems to be that the early teens are the time where the decision is taken to move away (or not) from STEM fields. That is part…

If you have some links to the studies you have read, I would be really interested to read them. Thank you

I apologize, I do not. I read widely and generally do not maintain an annotated bibliography of what I read. Perhaps I should.
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