Linus on "acting professionally" • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#201

Post by mbrock » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:49 PM UTC

i_c_b wrote: post #181

I wish more comments engaged his actual argument. Here, there's a lot of "Torvalds is a jerk and unprofessional" versus "Blunt is good, and screw the PC police talk!" That's not his argument. Torvalds is saying, "Some people think there SHOULD BE a universal 'professionalism' that 'we' can haggle over in the public sphere and then enforce on bystanders in local contexts" and "Other people think there are just local r…

That's a good rhetorical play by Torvalds... But the norms of "professionalism" that Sharp is invoking aren't just arbitrary rules. Of course the specific situation on this mailing list is different from a corporate office. But when Linus semi-jokingly says "I'm in my bedroom wearing a bathrobe, why should I be professional?" it sounds to me like he's trying to evade responsibility for his communicative behavior.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#202

Post by phryk » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:50 PM UTC

shawabawa3 wrote: post #159

brk wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Forking code essentially gives you the ability to take everything, and then move it in your own new direction. You leave behind only the parts you thought were "bad" or unprofessional or whatever.

> Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Yes it is. Saying you can just fork it is like saying you can just move yourself and all your family and friends to another country. You might be able to move yourself but moving any significant amount of developers is in p…

You might be able to move yourself but moving any significant amount of developers is in practise impossible.

So it's better to force that significant amount of developers to do your bidding? That sounds just a just a weee bit unreasonable, IMHO.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#203

Post by arkades » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:51 PM UTC

pmelendez wrote: post #112

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

> "He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years" Yes, Linux has remarkable importance mostly because its installed base (IMHO it doesn't offer any innovation from an OS perspective, other that being stable enough and free) However, that doesn't give Linus a free card to be abusive and rude. Yes, not being polite and being insulting is indeed being unprofessional, there are ways to s…

People criticizing Linus in this thread really seem to act like their arms are being twisted to work with him. I mean you literally compared him to a slaver. You know what the key difference is? He's running a voluntary programming project, which people are welcome to voluntarily join if the project and its other members suit them, and are welcome to leave (with all of its work-product at this time) if they want to, when they want to.

People are literally sitting around bitching and moaning that they can't play with a local, volunteer-staffed sunday afternoon basketball league because they don't like the people doing the volunteer staffing and organization.

You have absolutely NO right to demand that volunteer organizations began, ran, and maintained by other people change their behavior to suit you. The only time there is any duty created towards you is when (a) you are absolutely dependent on them for something, by their own doing, (b) they are forcing you to interact with such folks, (c) various other versions of coercion.

You do not get to dictate the behavior of every freely-assembled group of people which takes no action to coerce you to join them. You don't get to dictate the behavior of every group of people you might conceivably want to join.

This is some of the most entitled whining I've ever seen on HN.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#204

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:51 PM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #157

vacri wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rude and additionally it doesn't seem to achieve anything positive that can't be achieved more politely. It saves time when you don't have to carefully structure each criticism in a compliment sandwich and so forth. It's understood in this environment that that's how the story goes - the excerpts people see of 'linus being rude again' are tut-tutted by a bunch of people who've never read a single other message o…

>It saves time when you don't have to carefully structure each criticism in a compliment sandwich and so forth. I can only imagine only the most socially incompetent people would actually find it a major time-sink to say things civilly. You don't have to make a compliment sandwich, saying "Your kernel patch throws a bunch of warnings, what the fuck is this?" is hell of a lot better than "which one of you retards can'…

[deleted]

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#205

Post by scotty79 » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:52 PM UTC

jakobe wrote: post #151

vacri wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example of "he's not being polite, why can't be be polite, now I'm going to call him names", in this case, saying that he's mentally disturbed. Why is it that so many people demanding politeness of Torvalds can't live by their own rules? Perhaps what Torvalds is saying is true, that people will find ways around the 'false rules'.

I did not mean to call Torvalds names. Apparently I wasn't careful enough in my wording. I meant to express my frustration how the community often accepts socially inacceptable behaviour from accomplished people. When "normal" people fall into a rage, we tell them to learn coping with their anger. If they keep yelling angrily at people, we might even suggest they see a psychiatrist. Not as an insult, but because we s…

You can't be careful enough unless you abstain from saying what you mean. I think that's the whole point of this Linusgate.

You think Linus is mental. You can't massage it out to be non derogatory unless you give up the content.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#206

Post by mistermann » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:52 PM UTC

pmelendez wrote: post #188

scotty79 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He gets a free card to be rude and you get a free card to not like him and never do any favours for him and he gets a free card to not care what you think, do or don't do. I am yet to see him abusing anyone. Verbal abuse mentioned is just swearing in aggressive tone of voice. How the word abuse got attached to expressing being pissed off is a mystery to me but I think it involves american lawyers.

>"He gets a free card to be rude and you get a free card to not like him" No, he doesn't. If your boss or your client would talk to you in that tone you would call it verbal abuse. There is no such thing as a jerk free card, you can always be one but that doesn't mean is excusable. "I am yet to see him abusing anyone. Verbal abuse mentioned is just swearing in aggressive tone of voice." This is not the first time tha…

> If your boss or your client would talk to you in that tone you would call it verbal abuse.

Are you referring to the email we just read? Because I find nothing at all offensive or inappropriate about it. A forceful dressing down to be sure, but not disrespectful.

I think this line is important:

I'm not polite, and I get upset easily but generally don't hold a grudge

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#207

Post by anExcitedBeast » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:52 PM UTC

smtddr wrote: post #61

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

So, basically your position is "If you don't like it, get out". I'm not sure this view is productive in any kind of discussion. Personally, I think the amount of abusive speech & profanity in the tech-field is way too much. I assume(incorrectly?) that it's because it's mostly male and a lot of men like to do that to each other. I personally don't do it to anyone and don't like it being directed at me.

I assume (incorrectly?) you're female. Believe it or not, plenty of women are fine with and participate in profanity. And plenty of men don't.

At lunch I said, "That's a good fucking burger." Female coworker says, "Goddamn right it is." This doesn't have anything to do with gender - it's about culture. Some people can handle profanity in the work place. The rest can fuck off. The rest can get a job somewhere more professional.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#208

Post by criley2 » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:53 PM UTC

shawabawa3 wrote: post #159

brk wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Forking code essentially gives you the ability to take everything, and then move it in your own new direction. You leave behind only the parts you thought were "bad" or unprofessional or whatever.

> Not good comparison. A country is essentially a fixed physical plot of land, with people, resources, climate, etc. If you leave a country you have to leave all of those things (and more) behind. Yes it is. Saying you can just fork it is like saying you can just move yourself and all your family and friends to another country. You might be able to move yourself but moving any significant amount of developers is in p…

Right but the analogy breaks down in the sense that: Linus is responsible for the developers who won't move. They're his team.

You're basically saying that you want the fruits of Linus's labor without Linus there to do it?

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#209

Post by Ygg2 » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:53 PM UTC

anthonyb wrote: post #43

claudius wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the last bit, I don’t quite see the point. If I had a wife and she ripped off the sink, put a plastic tub there and called it an improvement, because the metal in the sink could rust, I would be quite clear with her that I think this is a ludicrously stupid idea and she should feel extremely dumb for even thinking of it, her being my wife or not. (Nitpick: Do you mean Richard Wagner or someone called Vagner…

Pretty sure there's a reason that you don't have a wife, if that's your attitude...

That was low, I don't agree with him, but seriously that ad hominem was disgusting and out of place.

I am now poorer for the time wasted replying to your post.

Re: Linus on "acting professionally"

#210

Post by sbuk » Tue, Jul 16, 2013, 12:54 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #44

You don't get to tell Linus what is or isn't professional. He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years. However he decides to get that done is his business. Call it rude or impolite, call it thoughtless or insulting, but don't call it unprofessional. If there's one thing that nobody can dispute, it's that Linus knows how to get shit done and knows how to run an effective team. Ther…

>"He has led one of the most important human endeavours of the last hundred years..."

No. Let's have just a modicum of perspective. That's not to belittle Torvald's achievement or contribution to computer science, but on the scale of importance generally it's way down the list.