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Prosecutor as bully

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Re: Prosecutor as bully

#201

Post by genwin »

rprasad wrote: post #181
genwin wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or, you know, you could just call your local Congressperson and complain. Almost certainly zero impact for this. Easily ignored. The prosecutor in this case, however, probably could not easily ignore her friends and family dumping her.

That's about as realistic as expecting people to dump Aaron by telling them he downloaded a bunch of files without paying for them. It made him a hero. You talk to her friends and family about her, and you'll just make her a hero in their eyes, the same way Aaron's actions made him a hero to reddit and 4chan.

There are a few "heroes" who are still outwardly racist. But for the most part they've withered under the glare of others. Ostracizing and shaming works wonders.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#202

Post by genwin »

fatbird wrote: post #186
genwin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Naming and shaming Carmen M. Ortiz for destroying the life of a young man is exactly what is necessary Agreed. She should lose her friends and family too, if they are good people. They should drop her out of their lives.

Maybe we can hammer her hard enough to drive her to suicide. Wouldn't that be a win?

I wish the Bush daughters had quit talking to their dad in the run-up to the Iraq War II. Those two girls maybe could've saved 100K lives. But highly unlikely Bush would've killed himself. His life wouldn't have been inextricably ruined like Aaron's was. He could get his life back just by stopping the run-up.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#203

Post by josephlord »

anon3456 wrote: post #128
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Would you prefer the US charge more innocent people with crimes to bring down the conviction rate? Don't be ridiculous. What I would prefer is that more of the innocent people who are currently charged not be convicted or coerced into a guilty plea by the prospect of outrageous penalties and soul-crushing legal fees. >People indicted by Grand Juries should end up getting convicted the vast majority of time, otherwis…

> What I would prefer is that more of the innocent people who are currently charged not be convicted or coerced into a guilty plea by the prospect of outrageous penalties and soul-crushing legal fees. Swartz was guilty. Even Lessig's post decrying Swartz' treatment intimates as much. Again, perhaps the things he did shouldn't have been crimes, or at least not felonies, and the penalties shouldn't have been so severe,…

> Swartz was guilty. ...

He may have been guilty of something. It sounds like the charges against him were at the very least trumped up far beyond what would have been reasonable for the actions he is known to have taken.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#204

Post by drzaiusapelord »

rprasad wrote: post #187
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's far better to have a government of laws and not a government of men Who do you think decided to tell JSTOR to shove it and prosecute him anyway under a federal computer crimes act? All prosecution is political and white collar crimes doubly so. Men decide to be vindictive, men decide which laws, and the men who prosecute knowing it takes millions of dollars to successful defend from a false accusation from the…

All prosecution is political and white collar crimes doubly so. No, all laws are political. Enforcement of the law, especiallly at the federal level, is apolitical. White collar crimes are not special; indeed, white collar crimes are by far the worst types of crimes because they strike directly at the foundation of the system itself (i.e., trust). There's no politically neutral AI calling the shots. Exactly. Letting…

> Enforcement of the law, especiallly at the federal level, is apolitical.

Pull the other one now.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#205

Post by michaelochurch »

agwa wrote: post #18

From the article: For in the 18 months of negotiations, that was what he was not willing to accept, and so that was the reason he was facing a million dollar trial in April — his wealth bled dry, yet unable to appeal openly to us for the financial help he needed to fund his defense, at least without risking the ire of a district court judge. Remember, this was on HN just a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?…

unable to appeal openly to us for the financial help he needed to fund his defense, at least without risking the ire of a district court judge

This is such a disgusting violation of power it makes me want to vomit blood. Why on earth do judges have the right to prevent people from appealing to the court of public opinion? That's immoral, abusive, and absurd. If people can't disclose what is happening to them, then abuses of power become frequent.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#206

Post by obstacle1 »

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #132
temphn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naming and shaming Carmen M. Ortiz for destroying the life of a young man is exactly what is necessary. She brought 13 felony counts against him for downloading articles that should be freely available, after JSTOR itself had dropped the charges. Destroying her career and seeing her fired in disgrace will send a message to all other overzealous prosecutors, in the same way that she surely thought her prosecution of S…

> Destroying her career and seeing her fired in disgrace will send a message to all other overzealous prosecutors, ... This is Timothy McVeigh thinking, and it makes you a loser just like it did to McVeigh. You can never kill or destroy enough people to defeat Washington, D.C. To win you have to think like Osama bin Laden: turn the system against itself. Wholesale, not retail. Scale up, not one off. TSA, not EFF.

First off, the connection between forcing a political firing and committing an act of mass murder is unclear. Why did you pick McVeigh as the metaphor? Why not Osama, or Jared Loghner, or Russia?

Second, that you think calling the poster a "loser" is important is telling. What do you think that will accomplish? Has insulting people ever won them over to your position, in your experience? Or were you banking on everyone's agreement, effectively forcing an internet shaming?

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#207

Post by PrudenceYuris »

rprasad wrote: post #192
PrudenceYuris wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her entire career, professional circle, and reputational supports have made an error in backing her, and they need to hear that directly. She hounded someone to suicide, and the repercussions for that are light if they are limited to ending her career.

I don't know how much more clearly I can state this: Most criminal defendants do not kill themselves. It was Aaron's choice to take his life, not hers. Her professional and personal contacts will never agree with you that she hounded someone to suicide. Telling them "she did wrong" when it is not clear that she did anything out of the ordinary in this case will have zero effect on getting her "shamed" and will have n…

"she did not do anything wrong"

That's a pretty arrogant statement in light of the general opinion regarding this case. It's also arrogant to think that someone, somewhere, will not find some means to destroy her career when at least tens of thousands will try.

You simultaneously claim that attempts to make an example of her will fail, and that such attempts should not even be made. Pfft. Something something before a fall.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#208

Post by AnthonyMouse »

alexqgb wrote: post #178
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that would really do it here. The problem is not (just, or even primarily) the laws against criminal copyright infringement. The problem is the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, the Wire Act, RICO and the complete set of federal laws passed during the heyday of organized crime that are so broad and with such disproportionately insane penalties that they can be used to put just about any arbitrary subject of…

Changing the law is the aim, no doubt, but as with anything, progress is much easier when you're seen as having strength and being on the side of the angels. Having legally and properly dispensed with a conspicuously abusive US Attorney does a tremendous amount to discredit the opposition. And it puts other attorneys on notice that their preferred tactic—hitting people with a raft of charges the freezing or exhaustin…

I completely agree that we should make every legitimate effort to have this prosecutor removed from her position, along with anyone who uses similar tactics. You have to start somewhere.

My point is simply that this is a systemic problem. We can't have one prosecutor removed and then stop. We have to make this entire model of prosecution illegitimate. It's going to take a sustained, organized movement to make real change.

Which isn't to say it can't be done. It damn well has to be done. But it isn't going to be easy.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#209

Post by alexqgb »

rprasad wrote: post #184
alexqgb wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the law is the aim, no doubt, but as with anything, progress is much easier when you're seen as having strength and being on the side of the angels. Having legally and properly dispensed with a conspicuously abusive US Attorney does a tremendous amount to discredit the opposition. And it puts other attorneys on notice that their preferred tactic—hitting people with a raft of charges the freezing or exhaustin…

That's not how politics works. It's never been how politics works. This is why most people simply ignore Silicon Valley and the Internet when it comes to political issues. If the likes of 4chan or reddit attack a federal prosecutor personally, all they will do is spur political action against reddit and 4chan. The underlying cause of their action will be ignored and forgotten. (Note: SOPA is not an exception; major S…

Key words: "legally" and "properly". In other words, the opposite of what Anon or 4chan could be expected to do.

Identifying the tactics used to effectively strip people of their rights to open trials is the object here. Juries exist specifically to guard against abuses like this. If the DOJ has found a way to make getting in front of one exceedingly risky and certainly ruinous, then they should be called to account for what is a clear subversion of basic Constitutional protections.

We can't get Aaron back. But we can make sure that everyone understands why he found himself in such a desperate situation in spite of having done nothing to warrant the insane penalties he was facing.

Re: Prosecutor as bully

#210

Post by AnthonyMouse »

rprasad wrote: post #184
alexqgb wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the law is the aim, no doubt, but as with anything, progress is much easier when you're seen as having strength and being on the side of the angels. Having legally and properly dispensed with a conspicuously abusive US Attorney does a tremendous amount to discredit the opposition. And it puts other attorneys on notice that their preferred tactic—hitting people with a raft of charges the freezing or exhaustin…

That's not how politics works. It's never been how politics works. This is why most people simply ignore Silicon Valley and the Internet when it comes to political issues. If the likes of 4chan or reddit attack a federal prosecutor personally, all they will do is spur political action against reddit and 4chan. The underlying cause of their action will be ignored and forgotten. (Note: SOPA is not an exception; major S…

I hear you complaining but I don't hear your solution.
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