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California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

the3dprintingnerd.com

201–210 of 222 posts

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#201
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the fact that Claude Opus 4.8 decided I needed a cybersecurity exemption to debug a stupid pure virtual call bug (basically virtual method called inside of destructor) that I had already found, oh boy, I sure would love to have my 3D prints analyzed by Anthropic safe guards. We should also ensure that nothing shaped like a dildo can be printed without scanning our face and genitalia and keeping it on file wi…

Frankly who cares about dildos when your personal freedom and private property of you and your family is at stake.You can buy uncountable dildo models in a shop. I recently was in Venezuela, I have been in Cuba. I am a native spaniard. There you have a group of people that took control of the weapons in the country and uses it to basically enslave the rest of the country. When the people in power have automatic weapo…

USA seems to have a lot of automatic guns, but still succumbs to authoritarism and masked goons terrorising population.

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#203
post #28

> The required technology is not possible - 3D printers read code, not intent; they cannot tell what a shape is for. "Anthropic announces Project Disarm, a new model designed for 3d printer manufacturers to quickly infer whether the intent of an stl file is a weapon. The printer first submits the job to the cloud, and only after it's approved will it print." Not that I want this future, just that I can imagine it.

A dedicated model for this purpose could easily run locally. Recognizing shapes is not exactly cutting age AI. The input to the detector could be not the G code instructions, but a 3D model representation recovered by simulating the G code. (That's a thing that exists.) The requirements for a 3D printer which detects weapon shapes is actually fairly realistic. It would likely have laughable false positives: 8-year-ol…

Also surely the individual parts of a gun could be easily disguised. Short of refusing to print pipes + switches you're not stopping the most adamant of home weapon manufacturing.

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#204
post #76

NY is pushing the same sort of stuff. The question to ask is how many people are actually being killed with 3D printed weapons? I don't have that info, but I would guess they are statistical outliers and would have been replaced by other homemade weapons if not available. Politicians love to "fix" problems that aren't really problems in the first place.

The problem is there is a lot of garbage about it. Ghost guns are a real issue, but ghost guns are not 3D printed guns. 3D printed is a very niche case. They're only good for one shot ever, they are not reliable even for that. And they're bulky. The one thing they do is make it much harder for a metal detector to find them. Ghost guns made by CNC milling equipment are nearly identical to what you would buy from the m…

And a lot of what gets reported as ghost guns in the press aren’t 3d printed, they’re commercially-made serialized firearms that have had the serial number obliterated.

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#205
I never understood this hysteria about possible 3D printed guns in america where every fucking idiot can get a firearm. If this would be where I live (an EU member country) were getting a gun licence needs a very good reason is hard to get (thank god) and the police can enforce that you keep your gun locked away and such, I would understand that there would be a law like this. But in the US?

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#207
post #107

The actual bill in question: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml... It seems more precise to say that 3D printers sold/transferred in California would need built-in anti-firearm-printing controls? I don't see how this directly bans students/teachers/businesses from owning 3d printers, which is what the title seems to say.

It does not. The gun lobby routinely lies about California regulations to try and get their way. They're on year 13 of boycotting the California handgun market, for example; new handgun models in the state are required to adopt microstamping technology, but firearms manufacturers are ideologically opposed to this technology, so they falsely claim that it doesn't exist.

They don’t claim it doesn’t exist, they claim it bears a cost significant to the overall cost of the firearm and is unlikely to meaningfully accomplish its stated goals. Ie prices will go up by 10% or whatever for basically nothing.

It’s a useless place to put an identifier. It can be filed off easily, and checking whether it’s present involves a microscope and/or disassembling the firearm (depending on the gun and firing pin setup).

You can even just straight up replace it with hand tools at the range. More insidiously, if this passes, you’ll probably be able to buy firing pins that are stamped with someone else’s identifier. I have little doubt a market will spring up for falsely marked firing pins.

Or go super low tech and just throw a brass catcher on the receiver to catch the shells. In a pinch, duct tape and a shopping bag will prevent leaving brass behind.

This is just a money grab by the folks that invented the tech. We don’t even do a good job of keeping stuff like select fire switches for Glocks off Facebook, this is unlikely to do anything but raise the base price of a gun.

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not. The gun lobby routinely lies about California regulations to try and get their way. They're on year 13 of boycotting the California handgun market, for example; new handgun models in the state are required to adopt microstamping technology, but firearms manufacturers are ideologically opposed to this technology, so they falsely claim that it doesn't exist.

They don’t claim it doesn’t exist, they claim it bears a cost significant to the overall cost of the firearm and is unlikely to meaningfully accomplish its stated goals. Ie prices will go up by 10% or whatever for basically nothing. It’s a useless place to put an identifier. It can be filed off easily, and checking whether it’s present involves a microscope and/or disassembling the firearm (depending on the gun and f…

They do claim it doesn't exist. It's not an argument they emphasize in their public messaging, presumably because it's such obvious nonsense, but it's one of their core arguments in their lawsuit challenging all California handgun restrictions (https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.85...). "Microstamping technology does not actually exist in any commercially available application on a handgun" (p. 11), and therefore it's the California law requiring it rather than manufacturers refusing to implement it that's depriving California consumers of access to modern handguns.

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#209

In general I agree with the 3D printing and open source community that bills like these are bad ideas. However, I want to ask this question in the spirit of helping craft better arguments: Given that it is extremely well known that most commercial printers will refuse to print anything that looks like counterfeit currency, why is this considered technically unworkable? I agree that compliance would be onerous, but th…

One is a specific pattern, with specific distances, colors, etc.

The other is a human-invented category of objects that lacks consistency in size, shape and design.

“Don’t print this specific pattern” is a much more closed loop than “figure out if this could be part of a firearm, bearing in mind that guns share a ton of parts with perfectly legal things”. Especially since the things that are most indicative of being a firearm are usually bought instead of printed.

Eg a “3D printed AR-15” usually means a 3D printed lower and the rest of it is bought off the shelf of a gun store (the rest isn’t regulated, you don’t need a background check to buy a barrel or upper or etc). So it’s really just a grip, the slot for the magazine, and some holes for pins in the right spot.

That’s super hard to identify. Grips come in a variety of shapes and sizes and have a bunch of legal uses (nerf guns, slingshots, Wii remote holders) and are hard to detect. The mag well is just a rectangular hole? Probably some slots for springs, but you have to assemble it afterwards so the printer doesn’t see that.

The pin holes are probably the best indicator, although they’d be trivial to drill or melt afterwards, or print them as a separate piece and screw it on top of the lower.

It’s just an almost impossible problem. I don’t even think humans could do it reliably with the info the machine gets. Whether it’s an AR lower or a prop/nerf gun/airsoft/cosplay/accessibility attachment (pistol grips have some nice ergonomics) gets into the nitty gritty of the interior and whether they support real linkages or not. I just don’t think we can do it with any degree of accuracy.

That’s without getting into the more avant-garde 3D printed guns that are made either out of hardware store parts rather than gun store parts (common in Europe, barrels and what not are regulated there), or are made out of an amalgamation of parts from other guns (trigger from a Glock, barrel from an AR-15, mags from something else, etc).

Generalizing an algorithm that can detect “things that aren’t a gun I recognize but could be used as a gun” is going to be fraught with false positives. You don’t 3D print the linkages, so it’s just a frame, and there an awful lot of things that could conceivably be part of a gun. Anything vaguely semi-circular could be a trigger, anything with a tube could be a barrel, anything hollow and rectangular could be a magazine.

I don’t see a way that either a) it only blocks current designs and the community quickly adapts around it and continues, or b) it tries to block anything gun-like and false positives spiral out of control.

It feels sort of moot anyways. Phillip Luty wrote a whole book about assembling a fully-automatic submachine gun out of parts from the hardware store all the way back in the 90s. It does require familiarity with hand tools and access to more tools than most people have at home (drill press comes to mind), but you don’t have to be an expert machinist to do it even without 3D printers.

This is all besides the fact that it’s so easy to obtain a real gun in the US that 3D printing guns is a niche hobby. I’ve looked at them and watched some of their competitions, they’re still pretty crap. The fully 3D printed ones still jam constantly and I believe still use off the shelf magazines because those are surprisingly hard to make well. The partially 3D printed ones (eg lower only) tend to be substantially less durable than market alternatives. Unsurprisingly, a plastic 3D printed lower is more likely to shatter while firing or dropping it than a milled steel/aluminum one.

Re: California AB 2047 makes 3D printers off-limits to students, educators, business

#210
post #6

If that becomes current law I don’t want to ever hear about Europe being over-regulated compared to the US…

CA != USA. USA has plenty of saner places. In fact, one could argue that CA is a local minimum for sanity in USA

HN regularly judges the whole European subcontinent based on laws in a single country
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