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European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

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Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#201
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Europeans were paying for theirs but, once US backed out of their own purchases, the cost per unit rose sharply and was no longer sustainable.

Europeans were blown off, when America unexpectedly pulled out like a Boeing door.

I'm quite impressed with Europeans' entitled attitudes towards the US security umbrella.

First of all, none of this should be "unexpected"--Obama famously announced a pivot to Asia well over a decade ago. What exactly did Europeans think that meant?

Second, European military intransigence has dramatically escalated the risk of a devastating war affecting both US and Europe, and the US is simply overextended. The US cannot bring sufficient military power to bear to defend the Pacific, European, and Arctic theaters simultaneously. European NATO members simply must pull their own weight now; reaffirming European luxury beliefs like "we don't need to prepare for war because Uncle Sam has got us covered" would be doing both US and Europe a dis-service. Many presidents have tried more polite pleading and cajoling in less critical times, with evidently poor results.

Finally, the asymmetry of expectations is remarkable. Europeans clearly expect the US not just to fight Russia with them, but to fight Russia for them. Yet no Americans expect European forces to come to the US's rescue in the Pacific--and European commenters online make very clear that that expectation is correct. Consequently, many Americans are skeptical of the value NATO membership brings, while seeing clearly its risks and costs.

If you want America to remain engaged in European security, y'all need to get much more serious about fielding an effective military force and clearly commit to helping the US against China in every way possible. And if you don't want America to remain engaged in European security, y'all need to get even more serious about fielding an effective military force.

So put your heads down, get to work, and quit it with the hyperbolic butthurt comments about "unexpectedly" being "blown off".

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#202
post #8
post #2

There will be a lot more decisions like this one. For the war in Ukraine and anything immediate they will buy American stuff if there is no EU alternative (and for many things there just isn't right now, there are too many dependencies). But the tide has changed, for 'in' it is now to 'out'. It is abundantly clear the USA is no longer a dependable ally, and that it will use all kinds of strings attached to hobble wha…

> The damage to our future world order I don't think "damage" is the right word, especially outside of the US. Changes aren't necessarily bad, and, as someone living in the EU, I actually like the current trend.

What do you like about it, specifically?

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans were blown off, when America unexpectedly pulled out like a Boeing door.

I'm quite impressed with Europeans' entitled attitudes towards the US security umbrella. First of all, none of this should be "unexpected"--Obama famously announced a pivot to Asia well over a decade ago. What exactly did Europeans think that meant? Second, European military intransigence has dramatically escalated the risk of a devastating war affecting both US and Europe, and the US is simply overextended. The US c…

I realize I was probably too oblique before, so let me be more specific.

The US has pivoted from traditional AWACS to the proliferated warfighter space architecture, the idea being hundreds of LEO satellites can provide a cheaper and much more survivable (not to mention persistent) air moving-target indicator capability. There is substantial project risk, but the US is resource constrained and cannot afford to fund everything under the sun.

European NATO nations don't currently need something so fancy and without the US, E-7's per-unit costs would be too high. But the US now prioritizes its needs in the Pacific theater (where those E-7s would not be survivable) over Europe's security interests (cheap, capable traditional AWACS). That's the pivot to Asia in action.

I don't even think that this outcome is bad for Europe. It's a reminder that Europe's needs are not America's priority, which helps to light a sorely-needed fire under European asses. Europe will buy GlobalEye or some Airbus platform, and the US will have a decent alternative available if the PWSA doesn't work out. It's also a potential opportunity for European NATO countries to contribute to PWSA, Starshield, and/or Golden Dome and more visibly and tangibly contribute to NATO's mutual defense.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#204
post #3

Sounds like the USAF decided last year that the E-7 was the wrong approach (too expensive, more interested in a distributed solution), so this isn't terribly surprising.

The first could e-7a aren't even slated to have particularly good radars. The US kept trying to do whatever it takes to get the price down & it keeps being hideously expensive anyways, with who knows what capabilities left on the cutting room floor.

There was a request for information that went out in April, asking, hey, uh, if we do want to make this an actually good awacs, what should we do with the platform? https://breakingdefense.com/2025/04/air-force-eyes-advanced-...

Seems incredibly silly to me that such an incredibly crucial capability is being so sorely neglected. Having superior signals has loon been a key US advantage, that's core to enabling so many other capabilities to be used well. Theres what feels like absurd fantasy going around saying we can skip airborne platforms & just use space for all awacs needs. And who knows maybe, but it feels like a lot of ridiculous wish casting, that's leaving us with horrendous woefully inadequate eyes, ears, & links today. We need a real e-7 plan, one with a really good sensors not the decades old tech that the US's E-7A defined.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#205
Let's hope a decision on an alternative platform is made quickly (although I am sceptical due to the bureaucratic maze of NATO procurement). The current AWACS-platform (E-3A) still uses old engines which are loud, smokey and not as efficient. Neighbouring communities deserve a quieter platform as well as NATO needs a potent airborne early warning platform. European technology is not an issue (Thales, Leonardo etc. make great modern AESA based radars). Also interoperability of data between NATO members used in the C2 chain is not an issue.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite impressed with Europeans' entitled attitudes towards the US security umbrella. First of all, none of this should be "unexpected"--Obama famously announced a pivot to Asia well over a decade ago. What exactly did Europeans think that meant? Second, European military intransigence has dramatically escalated the risk of a devastating war affecting both US and Europe, and the US is simply overextended. The US c…

I realize I was probably too oblique before, so let me be more specific. The US has pivoted from traditional AWACS to the proliferated warfighter space architecture, the idea being hundreds of LEO satellites can provide a cheaper and much more survivable (not to mention persistent) air moving-target indicator capability. There is substantial project risk, but the US is resource constrained and cannot afford to fund e…

It is worth pointing out that US' potential adversary in the Pacific region is known for boasting its "robust" anti-satellite capabilities, so it is difficult to see this move as anything but wasteful and potentially dangerous to other LEO satellites.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans were blown off, when America unexpectedly pulled out like a Boeing door.

I'm quite impressed with Europeans' entitled attitudes towards the US security umbrella. First of all, none of this should be "unexpected"--Obama famously announced a pivot to Asia well over a decade ago. What exactly did Europeans think that meant? Second, European military intransigence has dramatically escalated the risk of a devastating war affecting both US and Europe, and the US is simply overextended. The US c…

Dude, it's a joke about Boeing doors getting lost mid flight. You know, the thing that happened recently and made quite some news?

Maaaybe you should introspect a bit about how a single thoughtless sentence on some web forum could possibly inspire you to write an essay about European entitlement. Is this American vulnerability?

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past it was useful for nations to opt for an American solution even if it wasn’t the most optimal precisely because of America being a dependable and trustworthy ally.

That sounds like such a made up thing. Any source to back that up?

I won't be put in (public) writing, but it's a same thing as “no-one gets fired for buying IBM”. Sometimes it's part of a bigger international agreement, like, you buy food and we buy weapons or sth.

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on your comment history, you have already done so. You've been carrying water for Russia on HN for the longest time. I'm talking physically, for better or for worse that is still not the case. I don't want to see Romanian men (which would include me) leaving their (our, in fact) bones on the Ukrainian steppe up to the Volga, once was enough. > Apparently, you don't know. You think you know. Romania could be t…

So, you're scared. And through being scared you empower your enemy. Well done.

[dead]

Re: European Nations Decide Against Acquiring Boeing E-7 Awacs Aircraft

#210
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is exactly what I mean. In international law, they were treaties. Your internal squabbles do not concern us and just make you look unreliable.

> In international law, they were treaties. Please provide a verifiable reference to the specific international law or laws that says that a US president's signature is sufficient to create a binding treaty. The US Constitution, specifically Article II, section 2, says "[The president] shall have the power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided that two-thirds of the Senators pr…

Article 7 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, specifically

> 1. A person is considered as representing a State for the purpose of adopting or authenticating the text of a treaty or for the purpose of expressing the consent of the State to be bound by a treaty if:

[...]

> (b) it appears from the practice of the States concerned or from other circumstances that their intention was to consider that person as representing the State for such purposes and to dispense with full powers.

> 2. In virtue of their functions and without having to produce full powers, the following are considered as representing their State:

>(a) Heads of State, [...], for the purpose of performing all acts relating to the conclusion of a treaty;

[...]

Again, your constitution is your business. We do not care about it and it is not pertinent to our dealings with you. Get your house in order.

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