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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#201

Post by Dylan16807 »

ceol wrote: post #183
hackinthebochs wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about being hit on, then yes: at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. If one cannot handle having to fend off unwanted advances in environments where it is appropriate to make your attraction known, then you should stay out of that environment. However, one does have a right to not be harassed. If someone doesn't take no for an answer then they should be handled appropriately.

> at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. Sometimes, people like to go to bars to hang out with their friends or significant others. Believe it or not, entering a bar does not give you the right to run around groping people. The sexual assault apology in this thread is unbelievable.

Whoa whoa whoa hold it. 'Hitting on' is not groping or sexual assault. I'm sure you didn't strawman that on purpose but it's still a strawman.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#202

Post by illuminate »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #179
illuminate wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have myself seen the so called "bad boy" attitude succeed in a number of situations in real life." Those "bad boys" are interesting in ways that you are not. Still, who cares if you get the girl? You're not entitled to date any/every woman. You do not get to because you want to.

Downvoted because your posts are unnecessarily hostile to people who are posting innocent questions/observations.

Hostile I am, but constructively so. They should not feel so entitled to have everyone fall for them, simply because they "deserve" to be loved.

They (being anyone who thinks "women love jerks" is an acceptable thing to say undigested) need to step way back and think about why they find themselves in this position without blaming women for not wanting them as they are.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#203

Post by illuminate »

Achshar wrote: post #120
illuminate wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have myself seen the so called "bad boy" attitude succeed in a number of situations in real life." Those "bad boys" are interesting in ways that you are not. Still, who cares if you get the girl? You're not entitled to date any/every woman. You do not get to because you want to.

Yea, i did say i have seen it work, but that does not mean i envy them. I just meant that people are usually expected to adhere to rules that are not clearly defined and change from person to person.

Thanks for the clarification.

Shouldn't the concept of who a person wants to date change from person to person? There are suggested behaviors, but solid "rules" are generally dictated by people trying to sell a book of questionable value, not people legitimately trying to help you succeed in your dating life :)

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#204

Post by [deleted] »

ceol wrote: post #183
hackinthebochs wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about being hit on, then yes: at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. If one cannot handle having to fend off unwanted advances in environments where it is appropriate to make your attraction known, then you should stay out of that environment. However, one does have a right to not be harassed. If someone doesn't take no for an answer then they should be handled appropriately.

> at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. Sometimes, people like to go to bars to hang out with their friends or significant others. Believe it or not, entering a bar does not give you the right to run around groping people. The sexual assault apology in this thread is unbelievable.

[deleted]

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#205

Post by mindcrime »

ahelwer wrote: post #189
mindcrime wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react. That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior…

Holy moly. I think you need to take a good look at this blog post, and all the blog posts it links: http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/11/the-c-word/ Hopefully this read will clear some stuff up. You need to lose the victim complex.

Hopefully this read will clear some stuff up. You need to lose the victim complex.

LOL... based on that alone, I don't think I'm going to waste any of my time on the link you posted. Pointing out that both sexes have their own set of challenges, and refusing to toe the "women are good, men are bad" line is hardly having a "victim complex."

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#206

Post by hackinthebochs »

ceol wrote: post #183
hackinthebochs wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about being hit on, then yes: at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. If one cannot handle having to fend off unwanted advances in environments where it is appropriate to make your attraction known, then you should stay out of that environment. However, one does have a right to not be harassed. If someone doesn't take no for an answer then they should be handled appropriately.

> at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. Sometimes, people like to go to bars to hang out with their friends or significant others. Believe it or not, entering a bar does not give you the right to run around groping people. The sexual assault apology in this thread is unbelievable.

I made sure to qualify the context of my comment to make my points as clear as possible. These strawman arguments that inevitably get trotted out get incredibly tired. You're not going to find too many people around here to fall for that argumentation tactic.

Hitting on != groping people and you damn well know it.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#207

Post by sophacles »

recycleme wrote: post #45
mindcrime wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react. That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior…

It's even worse to start invading someone's personal space. That said, not all women will automatically assume you are creepy just because they are not attracted to you.

Most people will not find you creepy because they are not attracted to you. Most people will not find it creepy if you flirt and they are not attracted. They will find it creepy if they don't respond to the flirting and you continue to do so. They will also find it creepy if you start from a position that doesn't leave them an option to politely disengage from flirtation (e.g. starting with "want to fuck?" is creepy because it gives no chance to the other person to participate in what should be a mutual escalation of attraction - that you have already decided their level of comfort with the notion is a personal boundary violation).

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#208

Post by sukuriant »

asmithmd1 wrote: post #123
learc83 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury). "After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face , breaking her nose" Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.

assault is harmful or offensive contact. The assault happened with the first inappropriate touch.

Devil's advocate: Prove a grope occurred. It's a light, soft-tissue touch. A slap is a violent strike with an open palm, and a punch is a violent strike with a closed fist.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#209

Post by djahng »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #167
djahng wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is this is how men behave and women should either put up with it and stop complaining, or stay home?

If we're talking about being hit on, then yes: at a bar, no one has the right to not be hit on. If one cannot handle having to fend off unwanted advances in environments where it is appropriate to make your attraction known, then you should stay out of that environment. However, one does have a right to not be harassed. If someone doesn't take no for an answer then they should be handled appropriately.

It's pretty clear that the issue at hand is harassment, not merely being hit on.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#210

Post by mindcrime »

ceol wrote: post #193
mindcrime wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should realize your comment - in a thread about counteracting sexual harassment towards women at conferences - is about how incredibly difficult it is to be a man. Yes, I'm fully aware of that. I believe that part of solving the larger problem here involves both sexes having a better understanding of the position of the other. This is not as simple as "guys suck, you all need to change." Nevermind how dif…

Compared to being a woman, it is not difficult to be a guy. I'm not sure how you can look at this article about how so many women get sexually assaulted or harassed at tech conventions and think, "It's so tough being a guy ." Not all women are looking for a hookup every time they leave their house. If you hit on a girl at a convention, and she thinks you're creepy, it's your fault. You shouldn't be hitting on her. Yo…

Compared to being a woman, it is not difficult to be a guy.

I don't know about you, but I'm not trying to make any such comparison. Nor do I find it to be relevant. This isn't about "is it harder to be a guy or a girl," it's about the fact that it's tough to be a guy OR a girl. IOW, women aren't the only ones who have challenges when it comes to dealing with the opposite sex. And I don't believe it makes sense to look at the challenges that either sex has, in a vacuum. We're all in this together. We need more shared understanding that goes in both directions, not more antagonism.

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