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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

201–210 of 220 posts

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#201
post #30

The labeling of things in museums as "stolen" is lacking, IMO. In some cases, yes... straight up looted items are in museums. In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) if they had not been taken and put in museums outside of the places where they originated. Additionally some of these places would not have had the means to care for antiquities b…

> Additionally some of these places would not have had the means to care for antiquities back in the day.

This is a bad argument, because it's irrelevant.

Imagine getting your car stolen, and the thief says it's justified because he is rich (partly due to stealing a lot of cars) and he can afford to send the car to the shop for maintenance more often.

The object belongs to the original owner. Even if that original owner would choose to destroy or damage their object on purpose that would be up to them.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#202
post #140

The amount of pro-colonial sentiment in the thread here is baffling. The people that were colonized and stolen from have the right to do whatever they want with these artifacts, even if you believe they may not have the means, or will sell them to private collectors.

Why not just accept the situation as part of the ebb and flow of history? They certainly weren’t the first empires in history. I think a lot of the objection is more about nationalistic sentiment than anything else and I don’t feel it needs to be done to reclaim cultural heritage.

> Why not just accept the situation as part of the ebb and flow of history?

Why would you? By calling it the 'ebb and flow of history' you seem to imply that the things we do to each other is beyond the control of humans.

But of course we're fully in control of what we do, so the question is rather: if we have the possibility to do good, and it comes at virtually no cost to us, then why not do good?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#203
post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

> Abused children are taken away from their parents, but artefact are to simply be given back to whatever state has jurisdiction over some area they were in way back?

The reason why children are protected from abusive parents, is because they are protected by human right laws. A child is legally entitled to an upbringing safe from abuse, so a state is obligated to remove children from abusive housrholds.

Of course antiquities aren't people so they don't have any human rights. That is why it's stupid to compare artifacts to abused children.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#204
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would recommend reading "Africa is Not a Country" that delves into this exact question. It is the pinnacle of self-serving arguments for European countries to first spend centuries colonising Africa, stolen its wealth and cultural artifacts, enriching themselves in the bargain, and dividing the continent in a way that would guarantee political instability, to then use that same instability as an excuse for not retu…

Having been multiple times at the Chirac Quai Branly museums, it's pretty clear the argument is valid: most pieces seem totally forgettable and would likely have been discarded by their owners. Heck, even the "royal door of XXX king palace" is a 1-meter wooden door with carvings that aren't particularly fine. Those artifacts still exist and have value because they are exposed in a museum in Paris, otherwise nobody wo…

> Heck, even the "royal door of XXX king palace" is a 1-meter wooden door with carvings that aren't particularly fine

Perhaps your subjective standards are not universal when determining cultural/aesthetic significance of artifacts.

I saw a railroad spike in an American museum once, it wasn't decorative, or made of precious metal (just steel), but it meant something to the locals. I don't doubt the other adjacent pegs were scrapped or rusted away, but that peg was culturally significant due to the historical nature of the railroad itself.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What place is easier for 'most of the world' to visit?

Singapore allows visa-free travel to passport holders from 159 countries + many more with an e-visa or visa on arrival. The UK allows only 83 countries' passport holders visa-free. I picked Singapore at random. Probably some other country is even more visitor-friendly. https://embassies.net/singapore-visa-exemption https://embassies.net/united-kingdom-visa-exemption

ChatGPT included Singapore and London in it's list of 'easiest' cities to visit, but picked Dubai as the main one because of centrality.

The “easiest” city to visit for the majority of the world depends on several factors, such as accessibility, flight connections, visa requirements, and infrastructure. However, based on these considerations, Dubai in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) is often cited as one of the easiest cities for global travelers to visit. Here’s why:

1. Geographical Location: Dubai is centrally located between Europe, Asia, and Africa, making it a natural hub for international travel. Most of the world’s population is within an 8-hour flight of Dubai. 2. Major International Airport: Dubai International Airport (DXB) is one of the busiest airports globally, with direct flights to over 240 cities across six continents. Emirates Airline, based in Dubai, has extensive routes connecting the world. 3. Visa Policies: The UAE has relatively flexible visa policies. Many nationalities can obtain a visa on arrival, while others have access to electronic visas or straightforward visa processes. 4. Tourism Infrastructure: Dubai is extremely tourist-friendly with world-class hotels, transport systems, and tourist attractions. 5. Political Stability and Safety: Dubai is considered a safe and politically stable city, which adds to its appeal for international visitors.

Other cities like Istanbul, Singapore, or London also offer excellent global connectivity and infrastructure, but Dubai’s visa policies and central location make it a standout.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#206
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the time period, anyone between the Egyptians, Hyksos, Nubians, Libyans, Persians, Assyrians and the Romans, and indeed the British, since they all at one point were the official rulers of Egypt. I have no idea why citizens of modern Egypt, which didn’t get formed until 1953, would be more entitled to up to 3500 year old artifacts more than the then actual owners (agree with the means or not)

And in fact modern Egyptians are more Arabs — the Copts are closer to, but still very far from, the ancient Egyptians.

[deleted]

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it is even arguable whether they are even genetically similar to the ancient Egyptians, due to the migration of the Arabs from the peninsula when spreading Islam over time.

From what I've read, the Egyptian genetics are still relatively similar to Egyptians from several thousand years ago, due to the relatively small number of Arabs involved in the Arab conquest of Egypt. However, the only kinds of inheritance that I believe are strong are familial or cultural. I don't believe in broad umbrella genetic inheritance claims without any establishable familial connection. Beyond this, I thin…

Beyond this, I think the idea of geographic artifact ownership claims, based solely on the geographic origin of artifacts, have little to no merit.

That's fine, but the world disagrees with you, by and large.

And it needs to have some way of adjudicating these claims. Granted, fine-grained aspects of "familial" vs. "genetic" inheritance (throwing in migrations and multiple waves of forced assimilation) might muddy the waters a bit.

But the vastly bigger point is -- to a first-order approximation, the criterion of "proximate geographic origin" provides at least some form of an objective basis of ownership, and a reasonably workable and intuitive one at that. Meanwhile, as of the 21st century, the consensus view is that the ownership "claims" of recent colonial powers who extracted these artifacts coercively have no merit or basis whatsoever.

Per what the world at large seems to think about these matters. You can disagree of course, and go stand in front of your local museum and hold up a sign stating so, if you like.

(And nevermind the "solely" part please. Yes, there are corner cases like Anatolia where one group comes in and basically genocides the groups living there, so why should the current population get ownership of everything buried underground? Interesting questions, but again corner cases -- and the current population of Egypt seems to be the very opposite of such a case, for the very reasons you stated).

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#208
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible that Indonesia would not exist without Dutch colonisation. Indonesian nationalism was a response to colonialism.

So what? Maybe there would have been multiple island nations, maybe they all would have seen other countries and joined hands together. Why should the Dutch get any say in what modern Indonesia should look like? Same goes for the parent comment about India. The decline of the Mughal empire and the possibility of multiple states arising instead of an unified India doesn't justify the British colonialism and in no way…

Why get worked up about one foreign empire coming in and replacing another foreign empire?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in some cases, the items were lost because they were put in museums. Europe was not exactly a stable place in the 20th century. Many things were destroyed in the wars, and many items were stolen from museums by conquerors, individual soldiers, and looters.

Such as? I don’t see a single missing artifact on this list that was taken by Europeans and lost in WWI or WWII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missing_treasures Plenty lost in other parts of the world though!

This list is terribly incomplete. It's missing all of the artifacts stolen by the Soviet Army during WWII, and still not accounted for.

The USSR systematically stole from all the areas they occupied. They stole the indexes and inventories, so it's not known what was taken.

Entire libraries and museums just vanished.

The Soviets implied they were destroyed in the war, but there is strong evidence the Soviet system of looting preserved much. In the early 1990s, some treasures started to leak out.

Wikipeia is good at some things, and terrible at others. Compiling a list of "missing treasures" is far beyond it's competency.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just accept the situation as part of the ebb and flow of history? They certainly weren’t the first empires in history. I think a lot of the objection is more about nationalistic sentiment than anything else and I don’t feel it needs to be done to reclaim cultural heritage.

> Why not just accept the situation as part of the ebb and flow of history? Why would you? By calling it the 'ebb and flow of history' you seem to imply that the things we do to each other is beyond the control of humans. But of course we're fully in control of what we do, so the question is rather: if we have the possibility to do good, and it comes at virtually no cost to us, then why not do good?

In my opinion it’s still more driven by nationalistic agendas than the ethical imperative and as others have said there are good reasons to leave the artifacts where they are. I’ve only ever seen people make heated demands based on past grievances. A lot of this stuff happened a long time ago now, anyone influential has died, it really is time to at least take the heat of these conversations.
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