How America's universities became debt factories • Hacker News Board

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#201

Post by baq » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:06 PM UTC

dachworker wrote: post #25

Meanwhile, I know of German and Dutch peers of mine who upon completing their masters in Europe, enrolled in California to do a second Masters ( at the time I believe they paid in the range of $100k) for the VISA and internship opportunities. And IIRC, the bet paid off because they all found employment in California, with salaries 3x to 4x what they could get here.

This is also very unfair towards the Dutch and German taxpayer. These countries ended up donating their money and educator time to the US.

If your constitution includes provisions for free education, it might also be super hard to fix. (E.g. Poland.)

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#202

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:11 PM UTC

brigadier132 wrote: post #192

JoBrad wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of student loans is nothing compared to the value that those degree holders will provide. In my opinion, your first degree at a public university or community college should be paid for by the Federal government as long as you keep a certain grade average, and stick to a reasonable timeline. If it matters to anyone, I paid off my loans entirely, but also received Pell grants.

If your opinion were correct the degrees would pay for themselves and we wouldn't be having these discussions. We have people paying $160k a year to study in fields that are increasingly having their fundamental research completely debunked and exposed as fraudulent (see Political Science and Pyschology). There is also absolutely 0 reason these degrees should cost so much. If we want to keep a guaranteed student loan…

The degrees do pay for themselves on average. Bachelor's degreeholders have median earnings $525/week higher than high school graduates (https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2022/data-on-display/educa...), which over the course of a career would cover even the most egregious student debt loads. That's precisely why it's a hard problem; we could just warn kids not to jump into the debt trap if it weren't genuinely worth the cost.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#203

Post by ghaff » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:13 PM UTC

scoofy wrote: post #110

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

Plenty of smart people who get liberal arts degrees from top schools do just fine. I know plenty of them even though I have engineering degrees myself. They may not get FAANG salaries in general--unless they end up in management--but plenty of people I know are just fine.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#204

Post by pixodaros » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:15 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #114

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

I would also add 5) Don't educate young people on what their degree would earn them. So many young people think their hobby can become their career and pay for a nice life style. Unfortunately, it's not the case for many majors.

There are no guarantees in education. Lots of people have degrees in engineering, finance, software engineering, etc. but are not working in that field, either because they find they don't like the work or because that field is not hiring in the years after they graduate. Incomes of people with any academic bachelor's degree are similar in the country I live in, because if you are bright enough and diligent enough to get a degree in something reasonably rigorous, you generally eventually pick up the skills and connections to find a good niche. But 'get a degree in this, it pays well' is risky.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#205

Post by abnry » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:15 PM UTC

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

Re: 4), isn't forgiving loans awfully close to having power of the purse? That is explicitly congress's role.

You have some really perverse incentives too if you allow loan forgiveness by the executive branch, something close to buying votes.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#206

Post by somerandomqaguy » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:16 PM UTC

jackdaniel wrote: post #8

I wonder why there's no mention of a free education as an alternative solution to the broken system

Dunno if it's any better.

The competition then switches from spending direct financial resources to the university to spending financial resources to out compete other students vying for the same university. In China there's usually 1 seat per 50 candidates for good university spots, and the only thing that matters is your ranking in the entrance exams. It's not exactly uncommon for high school students to be spending 14 to 19 hours a day 7 days a week for 3 to 4 years preparing academically to win a spot.

Trading one bad situation for another one really.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#207

Post by penguin1029 » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:17 PM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #159

oldprogrammer2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s not the same as K-12. I can’t send my kids to an expensive private boarding school and expect taxes to pay for it.

And absolutely the same logic can and should apply for universities - there can be private exclusive institutions, but the majority should be affordable and mostly paid for by taxes.

This already is the case. 75% of student debt is private universities and colleges.

If you get into Stanford but can't afford it, a loan seems like a good idea, but in reality the loan eligibility should consider the degree and future earning potential (along the same lines of how banks qualify other types of loans).

If we simply cancel student debt or remove private colleges' ability to charge a market rate the result will be no more private colleges (similar to other countries with fully publicly funded education). In these countries you typically have a national exam that determines where you go, or you have to lottery in to a school if it isn't in your district.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#208

Post by Der_Einzige » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:20 PM UTC

advael wrote: post #6

We should be way more willing to straight up kill multi-billion dollar industries. Without that willingness, most modern problems are impossible for governments to solve, and such industries and even their potential competitors are incentivised mostly to exacerbate the problem. I love a good market as much as anyone but there really are problems markets will never solve

Can you imagine if we could kill MLMs, pay day loan sharks, bail-bondsmen (My state fully banned this lunacy), Psudoscientific medicine (chiropractors), Scientology and other useless trash from society?

God going after just one is liable to get you a fate worse than Daphne Caruana Galizia

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#209

Post by oramit » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:24 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #47

I don't know if this is some kind of heresy, but here we go. I don't think universities provide much value at all to the common student who is not going to be a PhD. I went to a very well-known institution known for putting the students in a room with the professors, maybe two or three students, to one professor. My economics professor taught me one on one. I still think, in the end, the work is mostly done alone, in…

I don't think this is heresy at all. I read this and just think you have a giant blind spot because you seem to be assuming that the way you learn is universally applicable.

I went to an unremarkable state school where I had classes with a hundred other students. Even my senior level courses were about a dozen to one teacher ratio. I still remember my professors and specific moments during their lectures when I was able to ask a follow up question which triggered that Eureka moment we're all looking for.

I wish I was able to just sit down with a textbook and learn a meaty subject but that doesn't work for me. I, and many others, need (or at least it helps a lot) the academic structure to learn effectively. The academic calendar, lectures, textbooks, homework, and other students you can study with all work in concert. The way you're dismissing all of that strikes me as really myopic.

There are many examination authorities but employers basically ignore all of them and have gone all in on college degrees as the signal for employment. In that way colleges are gatekeepers to higher level jobs, but they're hardly the only actor here.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#210

Post by pixodaros » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 7:26 PM UTC

foobazgt wrote: post #199

kraussvonespy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is bad too because if you turn your hobby into your career, you end up not having a hobby anymore. In order to have a happy life, you have to have a vocation and an avocation that are separate from each other.

> In order to have a happy life, you have to have a vocation and an avocation that are separate from each other. This reads to me as your career shouldn't involve doing something you enjoy. I think this mostly happens in situations where people are doing exactly at work what they'd do at home, and they don't like their job for any vast number of reasons. Usually that's only a problem if you don't have the security to…

The problem is finding that intersection. If you are really suited to journalism you will have a hard time financially in 2024. And the experience of studying a thing and doing it for a living are different, and in 2024 its hard to try different careers out because most employers want credentials and experience. There are still jobs where you can walk into the office and talk someone into giving you an internship but many organizations force all hiring through online applications and the HR bureaucracy (and the 'talk yourself up' approach works better for extroverts from the hiring manger's culture).