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Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

wired.com

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#201

Post by smoldesu »

threeseed wrote: post #159
standardUser wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't other companies emulate iOS?

They can: https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/IOS_emulators The issue is trying to make a business out of it.

The issue is violating Apple trademarks. Apple vs Corellium ended with Corellium successfully arguing Fair Use on a novel iOS emulator that they sold to researchers. Apple's only protected trademarks were for the wallpaper and icon art.

Conditionally, you are allowed to make a business out of selling iOS emulators.

> As to count one, we agree that Corellium is shielded by the fair use doctrine. First, Corellium’s virtualization software is trans-formative—it furthers scientific progress by allowing security re-search into important operating systems. Second, iOS is functional operating software that falls outside copyright’s core. Third, Co-rellium didn’t overhelp itself to Apple’s software. And fourth, Co-rellium’s product does not substantially harm the market for iOS or iOS derivatives—so Apple’s own incentive to innovate remains strong.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca11/2...

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#202

Post by homarp »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #143
callalex wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why I become the exclusive property of a specific corporation through the simple act of using a phone (which is something I am required to do in the modern day).

> through the simple act of using a phone Not just using it, but having paid for it.

and decided of paying Apple (for whatever reasons) and not any of the Android phones.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#203

Post by Vespasian »

threeseed wrote: post #161
cdme wrote: post #3

Apple's seeking to comply with the letter, rather than the spirit, of the law in order to maintain their ability to extract rents from the App Store. It's user-hostile (particularly given that they've now hobbled PWAs) but not surprising. Their behavior won't change without additional regulatory action.

> rather than the spirit Tim Cook met personally with EU regulators before their changes were introduced. I doubt they would knowingly introduce something that would result in a punitive fine.

It won't lead to a fine directly but it might result in enforcement action to bring them closer to what the law intended.

I seriously doubt that their ultimate approach was "cleared" with regulators because it's quite blatantly against the intention of the DMA. The fact that he met with EU people says precisely nothing.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#204

Post by mrguyorama »

snapcaster wrote: post #32

I think something missed when these issues are discussed on sites like this is just how ignorant of computing the average user is. What would be obvious for us "oh it's not from official app store, so I know to apply extra scrutiny" isn't even describable in most people's mental model of computers/smartphones. I don't want my loved ones getting scammed or hacked by people utilizing these new "freedoms". Why can't all…

This argument is null and void when "LassPass" passed app store review and was live for more than a day.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#205

Post by LtWorf »

snapcaster wrote: post #56
_visgean wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if you said the same thing about computers: why do you need to install sw from anything but Microsoft store? Why can't you sideloader people need a different browser than Internet Explorer?

Also curious, why can't you just stick to android? why do you need iOS to also change to support your ideas on computing?

I'm curious. Why can't apple obey the law? Why does super-rich foreign company think they can just ignore laws?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#206

Post by LtWorf »

doublepg23 wrote: post #99
Drakim wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look how many clicks those pesky do good gov regulators have a cost the world with those annoying "Yes I accept your damn cookies and privacy policy" on every website I visit. That is a form of malicious compliance that the websites do in order to make you angry at the regulators rather than at them.

If cookie pop-ups are not the intent of the law why does the EU website use them? https://european-union.europa.eu/index_en

You can't distinguish a popup from a banner on the bottom?

I hope you aren't a designer :D

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#207

Post by LtWorf »

boolemancer wrote: post #184
snapcaster wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, all these moves to open iOS are from some of the biggest pushers of enshittification. The walled garden is great for me, and all sideloading will do is open up new attack vectors for me (and more importantly, the tech ignorant people i care about). I understand the corporate actors pushing for this out of self interest, but all of the bystanders cheering this on annoy me. You already have android, linux phon…

How does opening up the walled garden impact you if you never side load anything?

It's the same for people who want homosexuality to be forbidden. It's not enough for themselves to not be homosexual, they also have to force their faith onto others.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#208

Post by dwallin »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> You can't legislate that someone lose more money than they gain with access to your market.

Apple would offer an app store in some form even if they were statutorily prevented from making any revenue from it because if they turned off the ability to install apps people would abandon iPhones in droves.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#209

Post by Ajedi32 »

haswell wrote: post #187
Ajedi32 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a new app gains popularity primarily because of Apple, and eventually gets big enough that its origins are now immaterial to the ongoing success of the company, whose customers are they? There isn’t a clear answer to this question. Arguably both Apple’s and the app maker’s, and there’s an intrinsic codependency that can’t be easily separated. There is a clear answer, as you yourself just said: they're customers…

I phrased that poorly. My point was that it isn’t clear if there’s a point at which the balance of the relationship shifts such that what was once reasonable (paying fees to Apple for access to their customers, among other things) is no longer reasonable. In the Netflix scenario, it’s clear that Apple wasn’t the primary source of customer acquisition. The scenario where an unknown app grows and gets big based on Appl…

I don't think we need to decide precisely what dollar amount is reasonable for Apple to charge for the use of their app store; that's something Apple and the app developers can negotiate between themselves. The problem is that Apple is currently allowed to use their software in a way that effectively does give them ownership of your customers, and they're able to use that ownership as leverage in any negotiations. Apple can say "pay up, otherwise our customers won't be allowed to access your service anymore, even if they want to, and regardless of what app store they use to purchase your services". If Apple couldn't do that then the negotiations would be more fair.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#210

Post by buildfocus »

sib wrote: post #167
math_dandy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. Windows users aren’t viewed as Microsoft’s customers from the point of view of third party software. Same with MacOS. Apple has pushed this paradigm in iOS because it’s ludicrously profitable. Control…

"Windows" didn't sell them a computer. Microsoft sold an OS to - for example - Dell, who then sold a computer to the user. So they are Dell's customers. And Dell, for sure, earned a lot of money selling placement on the Home Screen (or pre-installation) to 3P app developers. (Of course, there are also computers such as the Microsoft Surface, but these represent a tiny fraction of the universe of Windows computers eve…

> Dell, for sure, earned a lot of money selling placement on the Home Screen (or pre-installation) to 3P app developers.

Selling default placement & promotion is a very different beast from "Dell only allows Dell-approved software on Dell computers". We can all agree the latter would have been terrible in many ways.

> If 3P app developers want to access Apple's customers on a platform developed by Apple, then they should expect to play by Apple's rules...

Strongly disagree. Customers and developers should be free to transact using their own devices as they please, without Apple involved. Apple is very welcome to offer services for money - access to the app store, support services, and promotion etc all make perfect sense.

The end result of everybody on the path from the user to the developer adding rules & taking a cut is a world that blocks digital innovation entirely and completely hamstrings the software industry.

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