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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#201

Post by woooooo »

mariusor wrote: post #194
robertlagrant wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. This is very one-sided. If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours searching through the local intranet for some information, then that makes your team faster. There's a balance to be had, of course, but your team's overall delivery is what's important. > I view it…

> If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours searching through the local intranet for some information, then that makes your team faster. I'll be blunt here. I have very little interest in how the team I'm part of performs in general. Trying to make one person feel guilty that someone else can't do independent study is very toxic in my opinion, and I usually remove myself from under management that ap…

I'm as frustrated as anyone with "let me Google that for you" style interruptions but you don't ship anything alone. You need a team.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#202

Post by otteromkram »

theshrike79 wrote: post #191
funcDropShadow wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there is a balance needed. But spending once 3 hours to search something might increase familiarity with the resources the intranet provides. So the next question could be answered way faster. Or it could be the occasion to improve the local intranet with some missing cross reference or some comment.

Or it might be 100% wasted time that could be bypassed with a 5 minute conversation across the room. =)

Or, via chat or a phone call. No physical presence required :-D

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#203

Post by cevn »

robertlagrant wrote: post #172
cevn wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all have access to the exact same information. Sure, for a first time on boarder, I'll point them the right way. But 90% of the time someone taps on my shoulder, they want me to think for them. You can do that by yourself. Just send an email.

> We all have access to the exact same information. We might have the same access, but rather than dig through 20 medical textbooks, I'll go ask a doctor. Access is a really poor way of thinking about things. > But 90% of the time someone taps on my shoulder, they want me to think for them. You can do that by yourself. Just send an email. Why send an email when they're thinking for themselves?

If I am a doctor in this situation, then you can create a JIRA ticket and I will see it .. eventually. Do you have instant access to all of your doctors?

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#204

Post by cauch »

auggierose wrote: post #170
cauch wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't mind it being me, as a matter of fact, it's often me, as I am in a more senior position and have a lot of historic context. However, a lot of time has been spent on documenting most things, so often I am just going over the docs with the new onboarder, which is okay, as long as it's done in a structural manner. So, according to you, no one would ever need to ask you a question. So, obviously, GP will never…

You sound extremely self-centered yourself. Its fine if you thrive in a collaborative open office environment, and noise-cancelling headphones are all you need. But that's not true for everybody else. Your argument that you need to maintain your flow by actively interrupting other people is incredibly selfish and frankly just ridiculous. Also, flow is overrated. If you are in flow-mode, you are probably not doing the…

I think you did not got my point. My point is not that it is self-centered to "break the flow" (or whatever you call the reason that makes asking a question disruptive).

My point is that we had a situation where at least one person is going to adapt. The person self-centered is the one saying "the good solution is to have the other person adapt".

I'm NOT saying that the good solution is to have the other person adapt, I'm saying "why are you saying that having the other person adapt is the best solution? That's self-centered".

You answer me by saying "you are asking me to adapt to you, so, you are self-centered".

But I don't ask that. I don't force anyone. I'm just saying "why are you upset that this guy is forcing you to adapt to him but think that you forcing him to adapt to you is not self-centered".

I see the situation as very very symmetrical:

Some people needs A to be efficient, some people needs non-A to be efficient.

One aspect of the problem is that some people say "I like A, so let me just do A, and I let you non-A". But in reality, they don't let them do non-A. If you are a team of 2, and that you like not receiving questions but that your coworker like to ask question, there is no situation where we satisfy both.

The only solution is to act like adult and accept that I will do less A than I would have liked, but my coworker will do less non-A that they would have liked.

But here, some are saying "no! I want to do all A and it's to my coworker to adapt fully".

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#205

Post by nicoburns »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #162
robertlagrant wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it feels like you don't necessarily realize that some people do need deep work, and prioritize your quick satisfaction to other's focus. This is very one-sided. If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours searching through the local intranet for some information, then that makes your team faster. There's a balance to be had, of course, but your team's overall delivery is what's important. > I view it…

Of course there is a balance needed. But spending once 3 hours to search something might increase familiarity with the resources the intranet provides. So the next question could be answered way faster. Or it could be the occasion to improve the local intranet with some missing cross reference or some comment.

> But spending once 3 hours to search something might increase familiarity with the resources the intranet provides.

Assuming your company even has an intranet.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#206

Post by beeboobaa »

theshrike79 wrote: post #189
beeboobaa wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can unblock someone now so they don't spend 3 hours Past your training period you are responsible for your own productivity. Don't make it the problem of your peers.

You are clearly not a team player. The goal is to make the team succeed, not to be individual rockstars.

Sure, and if you can't keep up then you should reflect on that. Meetings and discussions are great. Constantly nagging your coworkers because you can't figure out how to do your job on your own is not.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#207

Post by kstrauser »

gorgoiler wrote: post #163
esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Open plan worked for me when there was a very clear contract between every stakeholder. Firstly, everyone had free, good quality, sound blocking headphones. Not just free as in standard equipment on your first day free. There were buckets of the things lying around and if you needed a new set you just grabbed some, no questions asked. VC funded opulence, yay! Secondly, there was an understanding amongst everyone on t…

A coworker repeatedly ignored a person’s headphones and would interrupt them anyway. One day I put a bright post-it note on my headphones: “Joe, don’t bother me”. I was in middle of flow, making some huge changes, when I noticed Joe standing next to me, laughing. “Hahaha, someone put a post-it note on your headphones!” I coulda killed him.

“In startup land did CFO

A stately office plan decree:

Through EDM, the coders flow

Unless they were disturbed by Joe

Until we broke his knee.”

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#208

Post by robertlagrant »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #179
robertlagrant wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The push back is because it's extreme and one-sided. If you have some information that unblocks a team member, or another part of the business, say to make a sale, yes you should be interrupted. Your salary comes from somewhere, and your delivery is as a team, not an individual.

Because, you bring up sales, I am assuming that is your area of expertise. If a big sale can be unblocked by asking some specific employee an important question now, do it. If that happens five times a day, those sales are neither big nor are these very specific questions. Developers are most productive when in deep working mode. A simple question like "What time is it?" can be answered in 5 s, but it may cost a deve…

> Because, you bring up sales, I am assuming that is your area of expertise

I'm not in sales at all. Having an overview of the different bits of the business isn't a sales attribute. It's just an example of "what your job is" - which might range from weeks of uninterrupted detailed technical work at Microsoft Research, to presenting to clients, to running teams, to making technical decisions and getting agreement, to writing code.

Thinking every engineer's job is "writing code" and anyone who thinks wider is wrong is what the pushback in this thread is all about.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#209

Post by funcDropShadow »

jusssi wrote: post #110
zeristor wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you have the head of sales ringing a bell for a sale every few hours too?

To me, this seems like a positive problem.

Of course it is good, if the sales team succeeds. But it is bad if that means that the developers are unable to do their work.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#210

Post by IntelMiner »

frameset wrote: post #153
sokoloff wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who wins? The CFO and corp real estate people (correctly) saying how much more expensive (and less flexible to changing team size) a building with enough private offices is.

Good news! They can let the coders work from home and massively cut down the amount spent on insurance, office space, and furniture! Weirdly, that's not popular with the decision making extroverts either...

Or the friends of the C-suites who own all that real estate for some reason
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