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Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

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Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read your account of your onboarding at two different companies, I can only see a company with a good culture and another company with a poor culture. If you had onboarded the first company remotely, I bet you would have got check-in messages. Similarly, if you had onboarded the second company on-site, nobody would have cared about how you were doing.

Yes, but that's the company culture the one I'm replying to is advocating for. A culture where you never should dare asking anyone for help, as you're inconveniencing them. Just sit silent with your problems and schedule a meeting the next day, and they might find it in their heart to help you. Or also get annoyed by "all the meetings destroying their focus time"..

I advocate for another culture, as I've seen everybody beihg happy with it.

I advocate for a culture where onboardings are mostly self service and most documentation is up to date, frequently available, and easy to access. A culture where people are not afraid to ask questions, but they rarely have to, because most of the stuff is at the docs, and they never wonder who to ask, because they've been told who their onboarding "buddy" is. The person being onboarded is also aware that it's probably a good idea to batch their questions into a list, so they can discuss them with their buddy during their scheduled meetings, but is also not afraid to ad-hoc ask questions, because no documentation is perfect. If these ad-hoc questions are too much and too often, it might be that something in the self service is missing, and that is remedied accordingly.

In the culture I advocate, everybody's satisfied, learned well, and mindful of each other's time and flow, and it has nothing to do with being in the office or not. In fact, I have anecdotally noticed that in-person companies are more likely to use existing people's time and attention as crutches for compensating for a the lackings of a comprehensive on-boarding plan, which is what I believe the OP experienced and wrongfully thought to be the solution.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#92

It really depends on individual. Some, especially juniors, needs to have a sentry behind their back because the moment you will look away, they will start doing something else, like watching YouTube videos

Those ones need to be fired, not babysat. Well... If they're hourly anyway. If they're salary and want to take breaks but they get their shit done, they can do what they want.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#93
post #22

The article oversimplifies things a little, IMHO. It's not the open floor plan office that's the main cause of the problem for DnD type work, nor are offices with doors a general solution. It's all about policy. A separate office with a door doesn't do you any good if every ten minutes someone drops by to knock on it. A private office also doesn't help if you're constantly bombarded with "urgent" messages from variou…

Once someone scheduled a meeting with me on focus Friday. So uncool. I almost declined.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A room full of engineers is tolerable, and if they're on your team this is even desirable. Until one of the engineers who has no social awareness decides to eat at their desk instead of taking lunch elsewhere, or you just need some silent time and there's just no option for it. I'm very reluctantly pursuing on-site or hybrid positions as a last ditch (desperate) effort to find some work, and I'm not the slightest b…

>Until one of the engineers who has no social awareness decides to eat at their desk instead of taking lunch elsewhere Maybe he's aware, and just doesn't care because the company has already made him miserable by 1) not having an "elsewhere" to take that lunch, and 2) putting his desk right next to the sales team.

Could very well be, in which case that would be even worse.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#95
post #83
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "we should just force people to go back to the office, just to teach those toddlers to behave like adults". (not always, it's just a knee-jerk reaction "oh come on, stop behaving like babies") Sorry for the adversarial tone, but "we should just force people" to me shows you deserve to be chastised a bit. First of all, you are not an employer (luckily), so there is no "we", each company decides for itself how to han…

> Sorry for the adversarial tone From someone who called other people "toddler" ... > - not wanting to waste an average of 2 ... If you read my comment, you see that I called it a "knee-jerk reaction", it is not sometimes I will really defend. It is just when I see people like you, self-centered and unable to accept that someone can like interacting at the office without calling them "toddler" and inventing that thes…

> That's my point: people need to communicate A LOT, ask questions, interact. Bad developers are the ones who quickly create a picture in their head and then run with it

Hard agree!

I do, however, believe there is lots of merit in establishing proper communication channels and protocols. Things written down do tend to stick more as institutional knowledge, and can be referred to later by other newcomers or when you simply don't remember why something was done. Contrast that with: "Oh yeah, Barry told me to do it like that last week while you were sick".

> But this is not what we are talking about. No one here is saying that this should not exist. But is not sufficient.

Also hard agree! Written docu and knowledge bases can never (and probably shouldn't) fully encompass all the institutional knowledge. Talks and clarifications are constantly needed. But let those work in an async manner, or in a focused effort, not random questions flying around. When you are done refining something, and the questions keep pouring in, sit together again to create a shared understanding, update the shared understanding, and 9 times out of 10 you will see the questions subside to a reasonable volume.

> Let me demonstrate to you why. In software development, the whole process is based on the fact that bugs will happen. There are linter, code reviews, version controls that allow reverting, logs built in the code, advanced ticket system to deal with bug raising, ... Coding perfectly in one go is hard, impossible.

Hard agree. I'd go as far as to argue that pre-planning everything in advance is insane as reality hits back pretty hard.

> Because of that, documentation is bound to be more often incorrect than the code.

Also hard agree. Tbh, I don't believe in documentation too much (gets too stale, quickly) unless it's autogenerated (API docs, for example) or set of often tested instructions what to run, or even loosely describing what this repo is all about. Another type of useful documentation out there is "aggregator" documentation, which simply gives you a list of all relevant things to do/check/read to get a good understanding of a problem at hand.

> It does not mean it should not be done, but it means that we should continue to continuously fine-tune our understanding, and it includes asking quick and easy questions.

Agreed 100%. However, if you see the quick and easy questions coming at too high of a volume that it overwhelms the team, then the team's institutional knowldge is being used as a crutch, or somebody is unsure of their understanding, and we should address that, rather than simply accepting it as an unavoidable fact. Maybe the person is too junior and needs dedicated handholding and going through the docs/repos/code together for a longer (scheduled) time? Maybe the docs are wrong? Maybe the consensus of last meeting was not really a consensus? All of these are things to be addressed, and not simply accepted that your colleagues always need to be there to enable your flow.

> In fact, it is not even that their way of working is not the same as yours: you even seem to be asking people to do things that you will refuse to do yourself.

I am asking for being mindful of other peoples' times and not advocate for people being at their disposal because of a bad onboarding experience they had. The OP is, in a way, advocating for returning back to an old way of working that was deeply inefficient to me and my team, just because they like it, without providing a notion whether his team mates liked it (I guess some did, some didn't).

I am simply sharing the viewpoint that while some people really LOVE to ask questions and to immerse themselves in the office space, some don't, because it cab be really disruptive to their own flow and wellbeing.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#96
post #81
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't what you say contradictory? You are saying that devs need to stay "in the flow". But when you are in the flow and suddenly you have something that blocks you because you have a simple question, the best way to stay in the flow is to ask the question and get the answer immediately. If I have to quit my flow, go on slack, ask on slack, wait 10 minutes, then re-explain because the other person did not get it, then…

If one requires interrupting 6 other people to maintain flow, it's probably a good idea to start phrasing (hyperbole intentional) it like: 'To keep my own flow, I need to destroy the flow of all my colleagues' And not: 'My colleagues destroy my flow when they can't babysit me and respond to my questions asap, how dare they' It's like driving and then going like: 'Gee, all these other drivers are sure in my way, I nee…

> If one requires interrupting 6 other people to maintain flow

Where is this "6" coming from?

Again:

1) You may be incapable of doing work when someone walks next to you, but this is not the case of a lot of people. It's like driving and then going like: 'Gee, when these cars are putting their blinking lights on and it is distracting me, they should all quickly park before I arrive'.

2) My flow is fine, thank you very much: I don't get distracted by people passing by AND I also rarely ask quick simple questions (people needs to understand my work rather than me needing to understand theirs). It's telling that you cannot conceive that someone may disagree with you without themselves participating to a caricatural behavior that you have in mind.

3) THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT: the world doesn't revolve only around anyone. If you are inconvenienced by something that is convenient by someone else, then, outside of your little person, THERE IS NO REASON TO CHANGE THAT. If situation A means that employee X gets 6/10 and employee Y gets 8/10, and if situation B means that employee X gets 8/10 and employee Y gets 6/10, then situations A and B are the same.

4) I know that your argument is that your inconvenience is huuuuuge and touch everyone in the office and that the benefice for the distractor is smaaaaal and that the distractor is a terrible human being that should be thrown in jail. That's what self-centered people tends to believe.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#97
post #90
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Hm, one could as legitimately argue: if the person who has the knowledge FAILED to document it properly and give it to the person who needs it. Then the person who has the knowledge is the one who deserve to have their flow disrupted instead of the person who notice they haven't done their work. Why should the person who demands the knowledge pays for the other person failure? But more importantly, a grown-up would s…

> if the person who has the knowledge FAILED to document it properly and give it to the person who needs it. Then the person who has the knowledge is the one who deserve to have their flow disrupted instead of the person who notice they haven't done their work

Hard agree!

> But more importantly, a grown-up would say: the two persons are collaborating, they are not fighting each other. The person who has knowledge is a grown-up, they will want the work to progress correctly and they will want to see their colleague succeed professionally and socially. The person who needs the knowledge is a grown-up, they will not ask over and over again when they see it disturbs the person who has the knowledge (and no one here is against that, obviously).

Hard agree!

> In short: grown-ups understand that communication is messy and that "counting points" is just ridiculous, inefficient

Agreed. However, as engineers, if we see communication within the team being messy, you also need to judge is that okay, or could we improve it, by setting some ground rules or improving some process or maybe having more dedicated sessions for creating a good shared understanding. OP's thread, it felt to me, thought that messiness in communication was solvable only by being on-prem and able to ask quick questions, while I am convinced it can be solved far more elegantly and with less overall effort with a good, focused onboarding experience and even (or especially) in remote settings.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#98
post #18

Some do, not all do. I do much better in a room with ~6 people that are working on the same project. Much better than working at home. Much better than a private office (which I've had). Having people around me working on the same project is invaluable for me for * asking quick questions and getting an instant answer. vs chat where I may not get an answer for hours. * running ideas by others. This doesn't happen on c…

I'm glad you like it. Let's just all remember that other people feel differently and will be productive in very different circumstances. I don't need to feel very connected to the team, they are just business partners who are trading their time for money. If we can be friendly, that's awesome, but I'd much rather be connected to my family.

Personally, I've experienced open office, fully private office etc. Private office/remote are my favorites, followed by small room with a few people (I also had that in the gaming industry, it wasn't too bad) and, in a distant and humiliating last place, open office.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#99

so many screens of text and not one mention of slack, which is the real productivity killer. Something that no amount of doors or offices can protect against.

Slack can be closed or at least crippled by muting every channel.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#100
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of that is fine, the problem is that most places with shared space will have people not working on the same project in that room. Instead everybody is working on different projects, and they may be in Teams meetings and talking and talking about things with zero interest for you, and that can't possibly be productive. Even worse if you're in an office with one guy constantly on the 'phone on customer support or w…

How about when they put the software team right next to the sales team? This is exactly the problem with open-plan offices: they always do really stupid stuff like this, putting mostly-quiet teams very close to very talkative and noisy teams, with no barrier between them. Then everyone wants to work from home where at least they won't be tormented by listening to the obnoxious sales guy yap on the phone all day and c…

Did you have the head of sales ringing a bell for a sale every few hours too?
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