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Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

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Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that basically every human context includes the possibility of physical violence, usually for sufficient transgression the boundaries of others. If you walk out your door start groping people or try to run off someone's child, you will encounter violence pretty fast.

Those examples are not "every human context" and they don't guarantee violence, they're extrajudicial. Are you saying spanking a child is extrajudicial? a vigilante assault?

every human activity is in relation to possible violence. It holds relevance to basically every aspect of human life. It enables the status quo, and has the potential to disrupt it.

You couldnt make a post on HN if it werent for violence, or the threat of it. you have a computer to type on because if someone were to take it, they would risk beating or death. someone built the computer because threat of violence makes them work for a living instead of taking what they want. sometimes you can be minding your own business at a desert rave and violence comes for you anyways.

im saying all order, justice, and authority is based on violence. the only difference between an extrajudicial vigilante and a sanctioned enforcer, is that the enforcer is on the side generally considered more threating.

If you are sufficiently transgressive, violence is always a possible consequence, for children and adults. it is a simple fact of life.

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#202
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>>> People will think poorly that I’m talking down a romantic partner >>>> Well, yes. Relationships don’t do well when one of the partners has this much contempt for the other. There’s a difference between knowing in your own mind she’s not the best at her job, and calling her a “ditzy” “illogical” “girl” in public. >>> I don't call her that in public. >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38524596 is a publicly…

1. Why did you reply to this comment and not the earlier one, and even explicitly quote the stuff that has nothing to do with the "in public" you're responding to? 2. Come on, you can figure out what they meant by "public". It's not in the broader spheres of influence that connect to her. She doesn't see this site, this site doesn't see her.

> 1. Why did you reply to this comment and not the earlier one

It should be obvious: that's the comment I was replying to.

> and even explicitly quote the stuff that has nothing to do with the "in public" you're responding to?

To preserve the context, because the original comment was deleted while the OP continued to defend it.

> 2. Come on, you can figure out what they meant by "public". It's not in the broader spheres of influence that connect to her. She doesn't see this site, this site doesn't see her.

Yeah, I did figure it out. But we're not Humpty Dumptys here, so we don't get to redefine words on a whim.

In short: that's what he meant, but that's not what "public" means.

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#203
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once enough students tip over to "I'm going to use it and I don't care", the school can't do anything about it. The school can totally do something about that, they just have to be willing to confront the student and enforce the rules.

I don't know your background, but this definitely reads like someone who either isn't, or doesn't have a family member or friend as faculty in a public high school. You enforce the rule, and confiscate the device. You have an irate parent now emailing you constantly, coming in and demanding that their child be able to have their several hundred dollar smartphone back, to which they will hand it back to their child, g…

A school can't have rules if they're that afraid of one parent complaining. They're too weak.

What if the student beats other kids up, and the parent behaves similarly in response to discipline? Should the school tolerate that defiance, too?

The school obviously can't take the phone and throw it in a shredder or keep it for the year, but they can and should be able to keep it for the school day (and every other school day, if need be).

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because they dont get to define the scenario in the most favorable conditions if they are claiming violence is never appropriate. Doubly so when they include a bunch of condescension about how anyone who thinks violence has a place should seek therapy.

> because they dont get to define the scenario in the most favorable conditions if they are claiming violence is never appropriate. The earlier poster was arguing that corporal punishment is never appropriate. When they said "better alternatives than violence", they were speaking in the context of punishment. A scenario about an urgent intervention can't prove them wrong, because it's not related to what they were sa…

Im talking about corporal punishment too, or at least im not drawing a distinction. the commonality I was illustrating is that violence can be a solution of last resort when other methods have failed, and it is possible for other methods to fail.

>They didn't ask if you think violence "has a place". They asked if it's what normally happens for your interpersonal conflicts. Those two ideas are not at all close.

I think it was an intentionally loaded and insulting question. yeah, im sure the poster normally resorts to violence interpersonal conflicts when they cant agree on a move with their partner.

Plus, it is just a crappy argument. The parent wasn't arguing that corporal punishment should normally be the tool to resolve issues, so it is a faulty comparison.

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#205
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Why did you reply to this comment and not the earlier one, and even explicitly quote the stuff that has nothing to do with the "in public" you're responding to? 2. Come on, you can figure out what they meant by "public". It's not in the broader spheres of influence that connect to her. She doesn't see this site, this site doesn't see her.

> 1. Why did you reply to this comment and not the earlier one It should be obvious: that's the comment I was replying to. > and even explicitly quote the stuff that has nothing to do with the "in public" you're responding to? To preserve the context, because the original comment was deleted while the OP continued to defend it. > 2. Come on, you can figure out what they meant by "public". It's not in the broader sphe…

> It should be obvious: that's the comment I was replying to.

Going by what you wrote, you were replying to this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38524906

You didn't say a single word about the next two comments in the chain. So I don't see how they act as context.

> Yeah, I did figure it out. But we're not Humpty Dumptys here, so we don't get to redefine words on a whim.

> In short: that's what he meant, but that's not what "public" means.

It's close enough.

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize."

The strongest plausible interpretation is that you would use a different word than "public", but it's a pointless quibble. Not "How **** do you have to be", "You're not as clever".

Those insults are wildly unfitting for a complaint about wording.

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because they dont get to define the scenario in the most favorable conditions if they are claiming violence is never appropriate. The earlier poster was arguing that corporal punishment is never appropriate. When they said "better alternatives than violence", they were speaking in the context of punishment. A scenario about an urgent intervention can't prove them wrong, because it's not related to what they were sa…

Im talking about corporal punishment too, or at least im not drawing a distinction. the commonality I was illustrating is that violence can be a solution of last resort when other methods have failed, and it is possible for other methods to fail. >They didn't ask if you think violence "has a place". They asked if it's what normally happens for your interpersonal conflicts. Those two ideas are not at all close. I thin…

Sometimes violence is necessary in an urgent situation. This is easy to prove.

This does not prove that violence is sometimes necessary as a punishment. Punishments are very different from urgent situations.

You very much should be drawing a distinction.

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if a kid was playing banned games in my class, i'd want to do the same. why are kids' devices so special?

Imagine if you snuck out your phone to do something, and the response was forcing a factory reset . If you're not treating kids' devices as special in a bad way , you'd never even think of making that the rule!

Teachers took like a decade to figure out that when a kid takes out his calculator in English class it is special in a bad way.

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#208
This has been trialled in schools here in Iceland, and from interviews and surveys it would seem the kids love not having their phone.

Reading some interview transcripts I remember them mentioning that the kids felt that since their whole social group was without a phone (everyone in the school had to leave their phones at home or in storage boxes) at the same time they did not feel like there was anything that they might be missing out on, and subsequently could rather relax and focus on face-to-face interactions instead.

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not really disagreeing, but - that was absolutely normal and near-universal just 15 years ago.

Yes, people had different ways of dealing with things in the past, but things are different now. I recall seeing a comment on HN last week that said the commenter ignored a call assuming it was spam, and was only alerted to the fact that his kid was in the hospital when someone from the school showed up at his door. People assume they can reach you by phone these days, especially if you're the parent of young-ish chi…

OK, but if you've elevated phones to that level, is it any surprise that 13 and 14 year olds also see them as indispensable?

Re: Minnesota middle school students 'seem happy' after cellphone ban

#210

“A good science fiction story should be able to predict not the automobile but the traffic jam.” -- Frederik Pohl Car, meet traffic jam. But few, if any saw this one coming. Oddly enough, today's readers would find any story based on this premise mundane - kind of like a story about a traffic jam. From the article: > “We do see a huge, huge difference in the way students are connecting with each other,” Smith said, l…

> Today it's almost impossible to function as a member of society without one. Everyone, even, kids under 8, simply must own one of these damned devices, carry it around at all times, and respond to its every demand.

the fallacy of limited choices. you could most certainly make-do with a dumb phone.

I for one, would buy a phone that had a strong camera + only basic features built with the aim of reducing distractions.

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