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Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

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Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#201

Post by have_faith »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #198
ciconia wrote: post #195

There are multiple factors causing the decline in bird population, but I'd like to focus on a single one: deforestation. Trees provide so many different functions for birds (as for other animals, and for humans too), both directly and indirectly: shelter, fruits, a cooling effect in summer, and most importantly, they act as an entire ecosystem for insects and caterpillars. You remove the tree, you remove the insects,…

Europe has a lot more trees today than it had 100 years ago.

What makes 100 years ago a good point of reference? as opposed to a date pre-industrial revolution maybe.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#202

Post by ajsnigrutin »

have_faith wrote: post #201
bryanlarsen wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has a lot more trees today than it had 100 years ago.

What makes 100 years ago a good point of reference? as opposed to a date pre-industrial revolution maybe.

Because we didn't measure (count?) the number of birds then, and we've been noticing a decline in the last few decades.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#204

Post by mahogany »

immibis wrote: post #145
Veen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a U.S. thing? Where I live—a rural part of the UK—I don't think anyone thinks twice about letting their cats out. It's just what you do with cats.

It's an environmentally conscious person thing. Most people in most countries don't think twice about having cats or letting them out - even though they kill birds.

But what are the environmental effects of harvesting & manufacturing the food for the cats that are kept indoors? This is always left out of the equation in these conversations. Cats have to eat some animal to survive. To me, it seems bad for the environment to have cats as pets at all... (I have a cat)

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#205

Post by ciconia »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #198
ciconia wrote: post #195

There are multiple factors causing the decline in bird population, but I'd like to focus on a single one: deforestation. Trees provide so many different functions for birds (as for other animals, and for humans too), both directly and indirectly: shelter, fruits, a cooling effect in summer, and most importantly, they act as an entire ecosystem for insects and caterpillars. You remove the tree, you remove the insects,…

Europe has a lot more trees today than it had 100 years ago.

I would say there's a difference between a fir Douglas plantation and a multi-species forest. The two are not ecologically equivalent. At least around where I live (department 71 in France), there are less and less forests and more and more tree plantations.

I think it would be interesting to look at how much biodiverse forests we have now compared to 100 years ago. I might be proven wrong.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#206

Post by cmrdporcupine »

kuschku wrote: post #22

This is why all those "don't have outdoor cats, they kill all the birds" stories annoy me. At best they're misguided, at worse they're intentionally misleading to hide the fact that pesticides and farming practices are actually at fault. (In Europe, on other continents the story may be different) Similar to the CO2 footprint, it's another way to individualize social issues and distract from large corporate sources of…

Entirely two different environments -- cats are a threat to birds in one of the oasis environments outside of modern mass agriculture -- urban areas. More and more, cities are becoming a place where certain key species actually find refuge. Unleashing cats in that environment is cruel to both cats and birds.

That, and if cats are our friends and we care about them, we should be sheltering them from the hostilities of an outdoor environment. I have had enough cats I knew in the past die from injuries from cars, or diseases/injuries they acquired outside to feel that it's just best to keep ours inside. We live rural, on 6 acres, and she loves it outside, naturally, but so do birds we love. Would she be "happier" outside? Maybe. But considering all trade-offs, I'll keep her pampered inside, and let the birds nest on my deck.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#207

Post by cmrdporcupine »

mahogany wrote: post #204
immibis wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an environmentally conscious person thing. Most people in most countries don't think twice about having cats or letting them out - even though they kill birds.

But what are the environmental effects of harvesting & manufacturing the food for the cats that are kept indoors? This is always left out of the equation in these conversations. Cats have to eat some animal to survive. To me, it seems bad for the environment to have cats as pets at all... (I have a cat)

Most pet food is created from primarily "waste" meat product from the human food supply chain is my understanding? Though that may be changing.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#208

Post by jononomo »

We need to move away from agriculture as a means of food production and switch to becoming herders. Farming is an incredibly destructive practice.

If we were all to switch to eating only meat, then we could get rid of farming entirely and raise billions of cattle for food instead, which would be far better for human health and longevity, as well as being a far more environmentally-sustainable approach to food production.

I am in favor of using nuclear power to desalinate seawater in order to turn both the Sahara Desert and the Australian Desert into vast grasslands that can support billions of cattle, along with all the bugs and birds that such a regenerative approach would give rise to.

We really need to get humanity off of plant-based food.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#209

Post by biorach »

wiredfool wrote: post #149
bainsfather wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of our animals' waste is any hazard to you, unless you slip on it! You are right that it can be done badly, as can many other things. I'd say you are actually arguing against badly regulated animal farming (especially since you mention the US), rather than animal farming per se.

Hydrogen sulfide is a common killer of farmers in Ireland.

Maybe 1 a year. And this is only emitted in dangerous quantities when the manure is being stirred prior to being removed from storage. So somewhat tangential to original point.
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