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Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

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Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#191

Post by SuoDuanDao »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #175
zmgsabst wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mega farms already receive subsidies — why is that fine, but subsidizing a less damaging method not? Also, that’s what tariffs are for: food security is national security. Finally, the Dutch farmers currently having their farms seized seemed to be doing fine — except for political interference in the name of environmentalism. Why is that intervention fine, but supporting small farmers rather than mega corporations no…

> Mega farms already receive subsidies — why is that fine, but subsidizing a less damaging method not? It's fine and might be a solution to the problem but purposefully orienting subsidies towards something and putting tariffs in place are as far removed from "the natural outcome" as you can get. > Finally, the Dutch farmers currently having their farms seized seemed to be doing fine — except for political interferen…

I think the comment about dutch farms was that they were getting along fine with high labour costs and small footprints.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#192

Post by pvaldes »

orwin wrote: post #133
pvaldes wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big plot hole in this master plan that many people apparently can't see or accept. If we remove the production of meat, this will severely harm the production of vegetables. They are connected. You can't have real agriculture without manure. Fossil guano is a finite, scarce and very expensive resource, and human manure is not so desirable as replacement by several reasons so, how do they expect to feed their gree…

You can't use manure of industrial farms in the fields, too much chemical compounds that can destroy your soil, killing fungi and bacterial life. I think in my area they try to use manure to produce methane.

Most fresh manure can destroy the soil. Specially those from birds. Is advisable to dilute it or store it for some months before the use. This will remove many possible problems also with chemicals. Not all, but a lot of them.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#193

Post by kuschku »

Veen wrote: post #75
kuschku wrote: post #22

This is why all those "don't have outdoor cats, they kill all the birds" stories annoy me. At best they're misguided, at worse they're intentionally misleading to hide the fact that pesticides and farming practices are actually at fault. (In Europe, on other continents the story may be different) Similar to the CO2 footprint, it's another way to individualize social issues and distract from large corporate sources of…

Is this a U.S. thing? Where I live—a rural part of the UK—I don't think anyone thinks twice about letting their cats out. It's just what you do with cats.

European cats aren't native to northern america, and as result, they're quite an invasive species with significant harm to the ecosystem. But that's not just limited to cats, that issue applies even to different species of lawn grass.

The other issue is destruction of ecosystem in the EU, where cats are native and primarily used as scapegoat.

Both of these need entirely different solutions, but "don't let cats outside" is very oversimplified and just serves to divide people.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#194

Post by flagrant_taco »

zmgsabst wrote: post #155
flagrant_taco wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How might this be implemented without ceasing am even more powerful government along the way? The changes sounds reasonable enough but it sounds like it's take the government to force new farming methods on us, break up corporations, and force people to leave their current jobs and lives to work land elsewhere.

Vote with your wallet. I buy from small family farms who use better methods — and you can too. I also didn’t say anything about “break up corporations” nor “force people to leave their current jobs”; I only said that it’s fine if we make a pivot that’s more labor intensive… we can use people rather than robots. Vote with your wallet for farms that use permaculture or similar; the market will naturally shift in respon…

Already on that path too, we buy most of our food from local farms as well.

I may very well have misunderstood your original message. I interested how change like breaking up the corporate oligarchies or shifting people from service jobs to farming could be made without massive government intervention.

The way I see it, our whole system is based on an economy that just doesn't line up at all with a farming-first type of approach. Major industries wouldn't be able to make that shift, modern conveniences would likely fall away, and the federal debt we keep piling higher and higher could never be paid.

Thst said, I have my own preconceived notions here and am genuinely curious what alternatives I've missed.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#195

Post by ciconia »

There are multiple factors causing the decline in bird population, but I'd like to focus on a single one: deforestation. Trees provide so many different functions for birds (as for other animals, and for humans too), both directly and indirectly: shelter, fruits, a cooling effect in summer, and most importantly, they act as an entire ecosystem for insects and caterpillars. You remove the tree, you remove the insects, and you remove caterpillars which are a staple food for baby birds.

So yeah, deforestation + pesticides = less birds, and will lead to a desertification of Europe in more than one sense. But even in the desert you can find here and there an oasis, a place full of life where birdsong is just as vigorous as ever. There are still many places across Europe where this is happening, many oases (plural?) that teem with life, and bring happiness to the heart. In fact, this is not so difficult to do, just bring back the trees and the biodiversity, then the insects will return, and when the insects are there, birds will return.

Build it and they will come.

It is high time we change our agricultural practices from destructive to regenerative. The techniques are already well known, and pioneering work in this field of regenerative practices have been going on for decades already - from Yeomans, Molisson, and Holmgren in Australia to Fukuoka in Japan and Goetsch in Brasil, the knowledge is there.

I live with my family on a small piece of land where we work to increase biodiversity and to reforest. Every year, birdsong gets louder and louder. I know it's possible and my garden is proof. Build it and they will come.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#196

Post by balderdash »

nabla9 wrote: post #17
tfourb wrote: post #3

There are also quite convincing studies that show even worse declines for insect populations, again mostly due to industrialized farming techniques and the widespread use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides. The standard approach in the EU to work against this really worrying trend is to a) bring more and more land under some form of protection and remove it from agricultural production and b) increase the share o…

> There are also quite convincing studies There is noticeable quantitative difference. People 40+ and older remember from their childhood how car's windshield, lamps and grille were covered with dead insects every time you took long drive outside cites. Today you can drive small country roads for a day and get only small number of insects. It used to be that you could walk in the garden and count easily 10-20 ladybug…

Don’t forget the the sounds (crickets at night etc.)!

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#197

Post by SuoDuanDao »

CalRobert wrote: post #36
himinlomax wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pasture farming on marginal land is part of the solution. Industrial meat farming is part of the problem. They're two different things.

"Pasture farming on marginal land is part of the solution" Can you elaborate? I don't see how this is superior to leaving it fallow? I have a few acres fallow and am right next to a quaint organic farm and I do see quite a few more bees in my tall grass and wildflowers than I do in their grazed land...

as always, it depends on practices. Here's a pretty good presentation on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z75A_JMBx4&t=783s&pp=ygUbY2...

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#198

Post by bryanlarsen »

ciconia wrote: post #195

There are multiple factors causing the decline in bird population, but I'd like to focus on a single one: deforestation. Trees provide so many different functions for birds (as for other animals, and for humans too), both directly and indirectly: shelter, fruits, a cooling effect in summer, and most importantly, they act as an entire ecosystem for insects and caterpillars. You remove the tree, you remove the insects,…

Europe has a lot more trees today than it had 100 years ago.

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#199

Post by myshpa »

myshpa wrote: post #101
danielheath wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece has lots of land that's either too steep for humans to walk on, or too rocky to grow anything but grass on, or both. As a result, traditional Greek cuisine has lots of lamb and goat meat.

Pag in Croatia too ... it's called "island of paski cheese" iirc ... it's mostly rocky desert with patches of grass and herds of islands and goats, but leave the island and suddenly the landscape is green and lush. "Historically, Pag had more forested areas than it does today. The island used to be covered with oak and pine forests, but due to centuries of human activity, including grazing, deforestation, and the col…

herds of sheep and goats, chance to reforest

Re: Farmland practices are driving bird population decline across Europe

#200

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #191
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mega farms already receive subsidies — why is that fine, but subsidizing a less damaging method not? It's fine and might be a solution to the problem but purposefully orienting subsidies towards something and putting tariffs in place are as far removed from "the natural outcome" as you can get. > Finally, the Dutch farmers currently having their farms seized seemed to be doing fine — except for political interferen…

I think the comment about dutch farms was that they were getting along fine with high labour costs and small footprints.

Dutch farms are massive. We are talking about livestock farming at a size where robotisation makes sense.
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