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Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

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Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#201

Post by Timon3 »

kube-system wrote: post #193
Timon3 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I know where I come from better than you, and it is my interpretation.

I respect that you have your own interpretation. I think you might have either misunderstood what the person above was trying to say, or maybe you may not consume much US conservative media. Rural America leans toward conservative values, and from their point of view, the things conservative Americans would call "fascist" in today's political climate are things like: - restrictions on gun rights - institutions being…

I don't think anyone should care what they call "fascist". What I call fascist I call that due to my history education on the topic, which seems to coincide with the widely accepted definition from political science. This does not hold true for the things you describe.

Funnily enough, it's also widely accepted that fascist movements work hard to blur the meaning of words they don't like to be called.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#202

Post by kube-system »

Timon3 wrote: post #201
kube-system wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect that you have your own interpretation. I think you might have either misunderstood what the person above was trying to say, or maybe you may not consume much US conservative media. Rural America leans toward conservative values, and from their point of view, the things conservative Americans would call "fascist" in today's political climate are things like: - restrictions on gun rights - institutions being…

I don't think anyone should care what they call "fascist". What I call fascist I call that due to my history education on the topic, which seems to coincide with the widely accepted definition from political science. This does not hold true for the things you describe. Funnily enough, it's also widely accepted that fascist movements work hard to blur the meaning of words they don't like to be called.

Ah that's the disconnect. The comment you replied to above [0] was asking for clarification about what the parent commenter intended with the use of the word. We're aware that the word has established academic meanings, and that the person above was (almost certainly) not using it that way, but in a politically charged hyperbolic sense.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35742855

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#203

Post by peteradio »

xyzzyz wrote: post #185
monetus wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes new machines and they generally damage something, yes. Despites op's emphasis on low-tech, the people I know who do permaculture seemed like they were excited for robot arms and computer vision to be better and cheaper.

> I know who do permaculture seemed like they were excited for robot arms and computer vision to be better and cheaper. If you need robot arms and computer vision, it sounds then like permaculture is impractical at scale necessary for replacing standard agricultural practices.

We already use computer vision to sort tomatoes at scale, I'm not sure if requiring computer vision precludes a successful automation.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#204

Post by xyzzyz »

peteradio wrote: post #203
xyzzyz wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know who do permaculture seemed like they were excited for robot arms and computer vision to be better and cheaper. If you need robot arms and computer vision, it sounds then like permaculture is impractical at scale necessary for replacing standard agricultural practices.

We already use computer vision to sort tomatoes at scale, I'm not sure if requiring computer vision precludes a successful automation.

Probably not, but my bigger point is that all those comments about permaculture typically completely ignore practicalities of large scale agriculture that are absolutely crucial to human flourishing.

Gardening is my hobby, and over the years I found a lot of practices that improve my yield tremendously without depending on chemical pesticides or artificial fertilizers. However, I would not dare suggesting to the professional farmers that they should follow my steps. These practices work in my garden, but they simply aren’t practical if you need to feed the entire world.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#205

Post by Guthur »

Guthur wrote: post #6
BMc2020 wrote: post #2

Most, if not all, companies involved in the sector are unprofitable in what is still a relatively nascent industry requiring scale and investment to remain viable and compete with traditionally grown crops. Many countries think food security is national security, so it will continue even if it requires government subsidy.

Many countries have been forced into mono culture plantation crops by IMF and World Bank, due BS globalisation comparative advantage policies. There is plenty of arable land it's just devouted to non staple production. And so they're stuck buying food with dollars they have no control over.

It strange how the time of day so drastically effects the votes on these comments. They are positive when it aligns with the global east, but then swings negative once the time of day reaches the global west, like clock work :)

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#206

Post by Timon3 »

kube-system wrote: post #202
Timon3 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone should care what they call "fascist". What I call fascist I call that due to my history education on the topic, which seems to coincide with the widely accepted definition from political science. This does not hold true for the things you describe. Funnily enough, it's also widely accepted that fascist movements work hard to blur the meaning of words they don't like to be called.

Ah that's the disconnect. The comment you replied to above [0] was asking for clarification about what the parent commenter intended with the use of the word. We're aware that the word has established academic meanings, and that the person above was (almost certainly) not using it that way, but in a politically charged hyperbolic sense. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35742855

> The comment you replied to above [0] was asking for clarification about what the parent commenter intended with the use of the word.

Yes, and I was explicitly explaining my interpretation of what he meant. I didn't think I'd have to analyze this, but sure, here we go. The parent of the comment you linked wrote:

> At the rate the politics in rural America are being strangled by fascism, cities may have an imperative to deprive them of their subsidized agriculture. Especially if fuel costs continue to rise against electric generators.

They are saying that fascism is strangling rural America. This will both refer to fully rural areas, but also rural states (overwhelmingly red). He's proposing that the cities should deprive them of their subsidized agriculture, referring both to cities themselves, but also the states that are mostly influenced by cities (blue states).

This means that one answer to his question (what is meant by fascism strangling rural America) is the same as "what fascist actions are republicans taking in rural America", which I described in my comment.

Any further questions?

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#207

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

millzlane wrote: post #61

I had an idea for "Vertical farming" years ago. And when I started seeing it in the headlines I thought finally someone has executed the idea of using parking garage like structures and mirrors to direct the free sunlight to the different levels to grow food in vertical structures. Maybe the Egyptians did it, maybe not. ( https://www.ehow.com/facts_7391989_mirror-egyptian-lighting-... ) But I always wondered why stuf…

> But I always wondered why stuff that literally grows on trees isn't cheap and abundant

It is!

Around here it's apples. Everyone with a few apple trees has far more fruit than they can eat in the fall and they're begging to give them away. I'm lucky in that most of ours are in horse pasture and the horses just eat them when they fall (cue horses drunk on naturally fermented cider!).

I'm told it's a similar situation with lemons in LA: they just rot on the ground. Again, I imagine similar happening in Georgia with peaches. Lather, rinse, repeat for whatever fruit is common anywhere else in the country.

Extend this to stores. Local fruit "that literally grows on trees" is usually the cheapest fruit you can find. Other than the bananas at $0.54/lb. The economics of those just blow my mind. Cheaper than potatoes but travelled 5x as far.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#208

Post by xjlin0 »

efields wrote: post #71

High tunnels are very efficient. Greenhouses are very efficient. I've visited https://district.farm/ and it's clearly the future (or the present if you're in Northern Europe). When I went there they were at 1/4 of grow space that they are now. Ready to expand? You just add more enclosures. You slowly recoup the capital cost of the structure. Might take a few years, but you will. Rinse and repeat. The US is not hurtin…

> The US is not hurting for land, we just don't use it as best we can

Hmmm, really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#209

Post by echelon »

ethanbond wrote: post #190
echelon wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides, how could terraforming Mars be easier than fixing our problems? We don't need to terraform Mars to our incredibly fine tuned biology. What comes next will evolve beyond our limitations. Humans are a stepping stone. Just a blink of an eye in an infinite time scale.

What? There is no reason to think humans are "a stepping stone," there are plenty of dead-ends in evolution. There's certainly no reason to think that putting biological things on Mars will in any way cause them to evolve into Mars-robust creatures. Evolution is a slow, slow, slow random walk throughout which nearly all conditions have to be nearly-perfect.

Natural selection is a metaheuristic maximizing on the landscape of fitness topology, available energy resources, etc. It relies upon biological constraints, such as existing genes, organs, and biological functions available. It cannot make fantastic leaps quickly that would require significant backtracking.

I'm not suggesting putting biological organisms anywhere. I'm suggesting that at some point in the future an AI will be able to rapidly modify its own substrate independent of biology, metabolic inputs, and genetic inheritance. That it won't be subject to information loss due to death or other physical constraints. That it will much more quickly be able to build support systems for itself to harness energy and raw materials wherever it goes.

Unless we kill ourselves in the near future, these systems will likely emerge and will likely proliferate faster than us. They're not going to be stuck on earth with us. There are abundant energy resources and building materials in the solar system and greater galaxy beyond.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#210

Post by echelon »

alpinemeadow wrote: post #172
hosh wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know there are people who see it this way and feel like this. It presumes a couple things: - that intelligent thought (or in other belief structures, spirit, consciousness, etc) are the only thing of value worth propogating - that by escaping the gravity well, we can also escape the problems we wrought by bad design. We’re more likely to carry the problems forward. Our so-called “intelligent thought” have problems…

Isn’t is interesting that as a species we don’t have a way to understand where are we in our lifecycle? As a human I can understand life stages and where I am relative to other individuals. I can plan my life accordingly and of course there may be unexpected events but on average I know I have maybe 70-100 years to enjoy life. As a species we have no idea if we peaked or we are in our infancy… one thing that will pro…

> As a species we have no idea if we peaked or we are in our infancy

There are so many possible outcomes.

It can be true that humanity will peak, yet intelligence will continue to grow and expand beyond humans.

Any outcome where humanity is the utmost pinnacle of intelligence likely means that we do not stray beyond our gravity well. That earth-evolved intelligence will never reach the greater galaxy beyond. It falls far short of earth's potential.

I hope humanity is not the peak. There's so much more that lies beyond us. In a greater developmental timeline, we could be just amoebas. That's exciting to contemplate, even though we can barely fathom it.

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