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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#201

Post by DEDLINE »

trenchgun wrote: post #109
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

> Prior to this, in the earlier internet age, you had to cut your teeth on IRC and forums. That was where technical people were in the computer tech space. > Do you know VIRULENTLY anti-black (or woman, or gay) these communities were? I can't begin to describe it. That is totally off-putting to someone who has the ability succeed but does not want to deal with the hate. Wow, thank you. Gives me a new perspective.

Yeah I forgot all about this. Also a lot of anti-Semitism. You had to have some thick skin on the old internet.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#202

Post by jimbokun »

monero-xmr wrote: post #25

It boils down to a core philosophical difference - do you want to emphasize equal access to opportunity, or do you want to emphasize equal outcomes? Some would argue it isn't an either-or thing, and we can do both at once, but I argue mandated equality of outcomes is insidious and causes social strife. If you are a minority and get hired, and the company has an explicit policy of hiring N% of minorities, then you wil…

I think we need to decouple the reparations discussion from the affirmative action discussion.

You can make a case that descendants of slaves and victims of Jim Crow laws and red lining policies deserve some kind of compensation.

But arbitrarily engineering the racial and gender composition of universities and industries is treating a symptom, not the underlying causes of current disparities.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#203

Post by [deleted] »

jcims wrote: post #46
giantg2 wrote: post #8

"...it would be beneficial if DEI initiatives were confidential and kept "hush hush" within a company." "...is nothing short of corporate virtue signaling." It might be most beneficial for individuals if it's kept-low key. It's best for the company to scream it to the world. Or at least that's what the leaders think right now. Personally, I think any medium to large company that talks about DEI and isn't addressing t…

I've seen quite a few people angrily push back on statements like 'pipeline problem' and I don't understand why. Obviously there's more to it than that, but it's also that (with hard numbers to back it up).

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#204

Post by kfajdsl »

John23832 wrote: post #175
kfajdsl wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm much much younger than John23832, but I definitely recognized a lot of the same in some of the gaming communities I was a part of in the mid to late 2010s. There wasn't quite as much racism (at least in the places I hung out), but there was plenty of sexism and homophobia. It wouldn't necessarily be explicit, but there were lots of offhand comments and jokes. That's how racism (and sexism, homophobia, ...) tends…

I did FIRST (about 10 years before you, ha). FIRST is a very inclusive space by design. I think it's great.

Ha, that's awesome; I loved meeting the mentors who also did FIRST way back. It's a great program, I credit it for putting me where I am now!

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#205

Post by moomoo11 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #142
catiopatio wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s completely, totally, and absolutely incorrect. I spent decades on IRC starting in the early 90s, and this is a politically-driven contemporary re-imagination of what existed at the time. We were open to all because we ourselves didn’t fit in elsewhere.

Some communities did have a lot of virulently racist and male-chauvinist trolling. The infamous 4chan forum culture didn't just spring up out of thin air, after all. It's a bit harder to tell whether that was anywhere close to representative, of course.

Yeah but 4chan and sites like it are shit. Why even go there? For one of those low tier sites there were hundreds of forums and communities which were normal.

Not a valid data point. You’re picking some fringe element and assuming the whole internet is like that.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#206

Post by trabant00 »

jaltekruse wrote: post #103
spangry wrote: post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

Is the top comment on this thread seriously a reverse racism rant? You are right about something, affirmative action is racist, but I feel it is absolutely necessary to try to balance out current inequities. I strongly believe people making arguments like yours, people fighting against affirmative action need to propose an alternative rather than just complain about it. There are lots of people alive today that could…

> people fighting against affirmative action need to propose an alternative rather than just complain about it

Not only is an alternative proposed, it's already implemented for quite a while: discrimination is illegal. Equal outcome vs equal opportunity. You can argue for any side you want, just don't pretend you don't see or don't understand the other position.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#207

Post by sinity »

shadowgovt wrote: post #130
John23832 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about telling people your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, it's about WHAT IS SAID about your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation. The beauty of the internet is anonymity (to a certain extent), but that doesn't mean that you can't see or hear things that exclude you.

Exactly. The old saying was "The beauty of the Internet is nobody knows if you're a dog." ... except they didn't mean dog, and we never said why it might matter what you are or what other people were assuming you were absent further information.

Of course they meant dog. Which is a placeholder for _anything else_.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#208

Post by backzerman »

zozbot234 wrote: post #126
John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

Is it any better when supposedly "tech" focused communities are virulently anti-white, anti-male or anti-Asian? These things have no place in genuine professional discourse.

> virulently anti-white, anti-male, or anti-Asian

I'm a white guy. I've sat through many a DEI session. I've never, ever felt this. How could I? 85% of the people in the room are white or Asian men.

I'm not trying to sound disingenuous here, but I really want to know, how does "virulently anti-" empirically manifest itself in the communities you speak of? Hiring? Pay? Promotion decisions? Possibly freedom of speech? Even then it seems like I'm free to say whatever I want as long as I stay on topic.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#210

Post by pessimizer »

spangry wrote: post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

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