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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#201

Post by lelanthran »

viraptor wrote: post #82
n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>BLM >LGBT >counter culture Endlessly supported by literally every news outlet, major tech company, big 5 sports league, F1000, university, and at least half of the political class. You’re not counter to any major institution, lmao. You’re not the resistance

Changing the colour of your logo on a certain date is not really "supporting". Corps gonna corp and if changing the logo and publishing some nice post brings more money, they'll do it. (While donating to Republicans at the same time)

> Changing the colour of your logo on a certain date is not really "supporting".

Meh. "really supporting it" or "poseur supporting it" is irrelevant, what's relevant is that it's mainstream, not counter[1] to mainstream.

[1] That's what the "counter" in counterculture means, dammit.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#202

Post by Mezzie »

Pigalowda wrote: post #143
drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

I think you are right. The US kinda feels like Asimov’s foundation, especially in the west coast. Fewer people acting like adults and more people chasing dopamine and letting entropy do its damage. Maybe I just need to stop taking public transportation and walking the city. Perhaps suburbs feel further from the precipice.

I've been wondering lately if it's down to the lack of agency on the part of average people.

Like I see that America is in decline and has a decent chance of falling apart in my lifetime (I'm 34), but what exactly am I going to do about it? Nobody in charge cares, they're too busy fiddling. If you can't stop the decline and have to live it, why not try to enjoy what you have while you have it?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#203

Post by gfaregan »

drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

I think your social standing has a lot more to do with money than behavior. If you're rich and live in a van you're interesting, otherwise you're just homeless. If your gig is a successful business you're independent, if it's Uber you're barely surviving.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#204

Post by zozbot234 »

satao wrote: post #168
GalenErso wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Society didn't use to be "conservative". Like, the romans and the greeks were a lot more sexually free than we are right now. What they also had in their time is conservative people, as in, people that were against the changes in the society they were living in (like accepting Christianism during the Roman Empire, etc). Being conservative can't be counter-culture because by definition it is preseving the CURRENT cult…

> Like, the romans and the greeks were a lot more sexually free than we are right now.

Not really, unless maybe we count their elites' exploitation of enslaved folks as a kind of "sexual freedom" but that's not something we would ever want to endorse. We know from ancient sources that their sexual behavior was highly constrained otherwise, and people who transgressed prevailing norms were widely seen as weak and lacking in self-control.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#205

Post by throwaway4aday »

cfltlayoffs wrote: post #23
mellosouls wrote: post #16

I see the counter culture over the last few years as the less obnoxious elements of the alt-right/conservative and centrist/"classic liberal" in their opposition to the overreach and oppression by the "liberal"/left especially in their domination of big tech and classic media. However, as the recognition of that unpleasant latter tendency has become mainstream and everybody and her grandma now knows what "woke" means…

What are the great creative works you identify with the alt-right? I know lots of great leftist artists, musicians, etc. but I don't see alt-righters making a lot of daring indie cinema for instance.

How many symphonies did the hippies compose?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#206

Post by dalyons »

throwaway4aday wrote: post #145
jl6 wrote: post #76

Personally I think the word “counterculture” should be retired, as we no longer live in monocultural societies. We no longer gather round any shared fireplace. For a counterculture to meaningfully exist, it has to be somehow discordant with a dominant narrative - but there is no dominant narrative any more. The west is not ruled by the left or the right or the church or the state. We are all fragmenting off into echo…

Speaking of bubbles, it seems like you're in a pretty big one. To speak directly to your comment. The shared fireplace is now composed of streaming services, news, and social media with its heavily censored content. There is a very strong dominant narrative in society right now, in the US it is somewhat two pronged but those tines are joined at the handle. The Western leaders all subscribe to the same clubs and seem…

And what is that narrative? What are the two prongs?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#207

Post by no-dr-onboard »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #178
no-dr-onboard wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard agree. It’s ironic how tone deaf the article comes off, but I suppose that’s another observation for another time. Another point on trads being a counter culture: You can tell a counterculture is real by the presence of posers and wannabes. Trad culture has this too. Ex: men who hide behind marble statue pfps and are actually single dudes living in a big city.

I'm not familiar with this, but your last point was curious to me. Can you not have "radically traditional values" and be a single man living in a big city? Or at any rate, it's not respected, so these people you are talking about are pretending to not be single and not live in a big city?

Yeah that was probably confusing because I had a specific part of this culture in mind (trad homesteader). My point was that countercultures are often marked by the presence of posers, tagalongs, and idealists who don’t practice.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#208

Post by zirgs »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #53
stcroixx wrote: post #40

Feels that way. Inside metro areas in the US there is very little difference of opinion on most issues. It was not always this way. People seems mostly content to consume content and ‘raise awareness’ online, and repeat.

You can't have non-standard opinions anymore. All opinions are now politics. If I say I like guns people instantly categorize me as Right-Wing-Nut or Alt-Right-Nut. If you express any kind of differing opinion publicly you will be associated with everything and anything the person hates. There are differing opinions, but those need to be kept private for fear of retaliation.

Thank god that I live in a country with more than two political parties. And where gun control isn't part of a culture war. Gun ownership is no different to car ownership and isn't tied to any political opinions.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#209

Post by bluetomcat »

auctoritas wrote: post #188

This article misunderstands what a "culture" is. Specific activities do not constitute a culture. Niche interests within a single domain do not constitute a culture. "Interest in Marvel movies" or some other figment of pop culture is not itself a culture, not by a long shot. This is why we can speak of a "pop culture" in the first place, because we sense that many things - nominally unrelated products situated within…

"Counterculture" is a very US- and Anglo-centric term to begin with. It implies that there is a "mainstream" culture to be opposed. In this view there are nerds with eyeglasses and specific interests and normies with a better chance of reproduction. The mainstream culture is the post-WW2 consumer culture that grew around commercial TV shows, blockbuster movies and advertising and household consumption through items like washing machines and vacuum cleaners.

Today, YouTube and TikTok are channels which multiply and amplify this kind of culture worldwide.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#210

Post by Mezzie »

seydor wrote: post #164
shanebellone wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"medium is the message" That brought back grad school memories. The Internet is an excellent example of this. We're watching -- in real-time -- the medium challenge society (at all levels and across boundaries). The Internet is still an infant; yet look at its impact.

Really? The internet looks old. A teenager in the 90s, aged fast in the 2000s, got a family in 2010s and now is seeking to police everyone through its retirement.

In terms of information history, we're still in the newborn stage. We don't even have a single generation that has been born and died with access to instant worldwide communication - that will happen when I and my cohort die. I was one of the first kids to be able to independently access information without my local community adults gatekeeping it. It's one of those little things that becomes a big thing in hindsight, like being able to read the Bible in the vernacular. Gen Z (and maaaybe some Millennials like myself but that's questionable) are the first generation to grow up with geographically-independent hobbies and subcultures. Even the old stodgy or corporatized Internet has this property.
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