The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend • Hacker News Board

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#201

Post by aerostable_slug » Thu, Sep 15, 2022, 5:51 PM UTC

p_l wrote: post #179

aerostable_slug wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does one separate the outer mold line of the spacecraft from its performance? Isn't Buran's appearance driven by similar requirements vs. aesthetics? What else would it have looked like — if you want lots of crossrange capability, you're not going to get something that looked like Faget's designs, would you?

Buran had different design requirements (once you discard the political), because unlike STS the orbiter wasn't sole launcher of the system - Energia took care of shipping heavy cargo to whatever orbit you wanted. So they had different set of constraints including size & prospective contents of the cargo bay. They have also flirted with the idea of just putting two jet engines into orbiter for extra cross range, whic…

It wasn't needed because the STS wing area achieved the goal of not overflying the Soviets after dropping off a military satellite (once-around mission out of Vandenberg SLC-6), and the US had many politically friendly potential landing areas, while USSR did not.

Catering to NRO and USAF wartime requirements doomed the STS to cost overruns. Sticking with Faget's designs and the NASA requirements may have salvaged the program's cost goals, but I'm no expert.

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#202

Post by aerostable_slug » Thu, Sep 15, 2022, 5:59 PM UTC

justsomehnguy wrote: post #199

p_l wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I was more diligent in noting back then, but essentially I went on a long walk on google, encyclopedia astronautica, checking russian pages with google translate etc. trying to read as much about the project - at the time it was still running we had more information published in Poland about Shuttle (including accurate drawings and system descriptions) than about Buran, and thus I was always left fascinated ab…

> Buran > 27. Alternative projects considered at the stages of the preliminary design and preliminary design: attempts to create OK "Buran" on the basis of OK "Spiral" - what was proposed (options and technical solutions) and what was accepted, what was not accepted, how and why. > Orbital vehicle "Buran" in landing configuration > Answer: We (NPO Molniya) worked on an alternative variant in a guise that mimics that…

> Shuttle flights proved that the Shuttle-like configuration works successfully and there is less risk when choosing a configuration

Classic Soviet risk-averse behavior. See also: copying every single detail from the B-29 because they knew it worked and it would be their heads (perhaps literally) if the Tu-4 didn't. They did the same thing with Joe-1, their first atomic bomb test. Do what you know works so you can go home at the end of the day. Innovation is a luxury.

This is what happens when employees fear management. Lessons to be learned.

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#203

Post by aerostable_slug » Thu, Sep 15, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #176

themadturk wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the B-52 is a paragon of beauty (no sarcasm there...it's always been my favorite aircraft). And the C-130 is right around the same age, not to mention still (I believe) being manufactured.

So is the UH-1, the Huey helicopter. Over 16,000 made, and many still flying.

My uncle (Army aviator) retired some years ago as a chief warrant officer with a ton of hours in Hueys, starting with a couple tours in Vietnam. He likes to say that the flight crew from the last B-52 landed at Davis-Monthan will be flown back to their cars in a UH-1. He might be right.

Relating his time in the aircraft in VN, he said there was little to compare with skimming the rice paddies with the doors removed, periodically going up a bit to clear water buffalo, carrying a load of beer for the guys in a firebase. He mostly flew medevac slicks in combat. Gotta save those boys.

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#204

Post by p_l » Thu, Sep 15, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

aerostable_slug wrote: post #201

p_l wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buran had different design requirements (once you discard the political), because unlike STS the orbiter wasn't sole launcher of the system - Energia took care of shipping heavy cargo to whatever orbit you wanted. So they had different set of constraints including size & prospective contents of the cargo bay. They have also flirted with the idea of just putting two jet engines into orbiter for extra cross range, whic…

It wasn't needed because the STS wing area achieved the goal of not overflying the Soviets after dropping off a military satellite (once-around mission out of Vandenberg SLC-6), and the US had many politically friendly potential landing areas, while USSR did not. Catering to NRO and USAF wartime requirements doomed the STS to cost overruns. Sticking with Faget's designs and the NASA requirements may have salvaged the…

The two stage design from IIRC phase II of Shuttle project was a marvel

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#205

Post by pdoege » Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 1:50 AM UTC

jabl wrote: post #171

chasil wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens if four newest-generation high-bypass turbofans are installed on a B-52? Is the airframe at risk in doubling the thrust at full throttle?

Doubling the thrust is likely overall a bad idea, for the reasons you mention. Also looking at other posts in this discussion, it seems the 4-engine option (4x 150kN class size engines to provide about same overall thrust) was discarded because the asymmetrical thrust in case an engine gives out at a critical moment (takeoff, say) would mean that the plane would need a bigger tail in order to have enough rudder autho…

The plan in the 90s was to use 4 high bypass engines and replace the tail. At the time improving the -52 was not favored by the USAF because it would threaten the B-1. I still think it is the correct approach

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#206

Post by justsomehnguy » Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 7:53 AM UTC

aerostable_slug wrote: post #202

justsomehnguy wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Buran > 27. Alternative projects considered at the stages of the preliminary design and preliminary design: attempts to create OK "Buran" on the basis of OK "Spiral" - what was proposed (options and technical solutions) and what was accepted, what was not accepted, how and why. > Orbital vehicle "Buran" in landing configuration > Answer: We (NPO Molniya) worked on an alternative variant in a guise that mimics that…

> Shuttle flights proved that the Shuttle-like configuration works successfully and there is less risk when choosing a configuration Classic Soviet risk-averse behavior. See also: copying every single detail from the B-29 because they knew it worked and it would be their heads (perhaps literally) if the Tu-4 didn't. They did the same thing with Joe-1, their first atomic bomb test. Do what you know works so you can go…

> This is what happens when employees fear management. Lessons to be learned.

You just listed the things what management decided to do, so risk aversion was on management side, not employees.

Just like the idea to copy S/360.

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#207

Post by fellellor » Fri, Sep 16, 2022, 9:33 AM UTC

runjake wrote: post #3

The first prototype of the B-52 may have been designed in a weekend. The B-52 of today was iteratively designed over decades and the current H models are entirely different planes than earlier models (although structurally very close to the G model). Another HN commenter mentioned GPS being designed over a holiday. But we spent years and years in the military debugging GPS and making it functional. Claiming that some…

Same goes for JavaScript. The first version is nowhere close to the beautiful, expressive and powerful masterpiece that we have today.

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#208

Post by Bud » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 8:10 PM UTC

grenoire wrote: post #19

Bud wrote: post #10

Great article, despite the painful spelling of "bona fide" as "bonified". I guess they don't have a copy editor.

Wiktionary claims that this form is recognised in Webster's since 1913. Probably a misspelling looking at the context though.

That's not a "form" of bona fide, however. It's a separate word that means something else.

Re: The B-52 was designed in a hotel room over one weekend

#209

Post by Bud » Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 8:11 PM UTC

kortex wrote: post #75

Bud wrote: post #10

Great article, despite the painful spelling of "bona fide" as "bonified". I guess they don't have a copy editor.

Language isn't static, it never has been, yet as soon as the notion of spell checking came about, written forms of words started to be frozen in time. If "tomorrow" is a valid rendering of "(on) t(he) morrow", I don't see why bonified is an issue.

It's an issue because "bonified" means something else. Look it up.