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Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

deno.com

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Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#201

Post by eyelidlessness »

fks wrote: post #82

Congrats to the Deno team on v1.0! If you’re interested in something similar for the Node.JS ecosystem, check out Astro ( https://astro.build ). Fresh’s Zero-JS island architecture approach was largely inspired by it.

A couple more for folks interested in prior/similar art:

- Marko, made and used by eBay, which had been doing islands/partial hydration for years

- Qwik, made (and I’m pretty sure used) by Builder.io (and one of the original Angular creators), which only loads/executes JS as needed for interaction. Not quite partial hydration, it resumes state serialized into the HTML (sort of conceptually similar client side to Alpine etc)

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#202

Post by datalopers »

dcveloper wrote: post #192
simonw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of server-side rendering feels pretty trivial to me these days. Fly.io will sell you a 256MB of RAM container for $1.94/month, which is perfectly capable of server-side rendering dozens (maybe even hundreds if you write efficient code) of requests per second. I'm sure you can get even better deals if you shop around.

I know not the same use case, but nginx will serve near 100K requests per second of a static site on a moderately powerful server. Server side generated SPA empowered by K8 solution drops that to a dozen. Those number discrepancies are comical. I must be too old to enjoy recent resume building architectures....

fly.io is simply a VM provider. You can achieve the same requests per second there as any VM host. The person you're replying to just has a comically low expectation of performance.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#203

Post by progmetaldev »

mbgerring wrote: post #197

In 2007 I was writing websites that were mostly rendered on a server, with JavaScript used selectively in some places for interactivity I remember writing at the time that moving everything to the client was solving one problem (poor encapsulation of JavaScript-powered front-end components) with another (needlessly rendering everything on the client) The industry moved toward CSR anyway, and I had to learn it to cont…

While I know it's not trendy, I'm still building plenty of both informational websites using Umbraco/.NET as well as web applications, using progressive enhancement. On occasion a client will have a concern that requires doing CSR (such as adding an unlimited number of "rows" in a virtual table or similar where a round-trip would prevent them from getting work done in a timely fashion), but for the most part the websites and applications I build server-rendered are very fast and performant. I still use front-end tools for minification/bundling/transpilation, along with caching, to get fast load and execution times.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#204

Post by cutler »

la_fayette wrote: post #97
tdy721 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the templates are written in JSX. No quoting nightmares, nesting is a breeze, the server side APIs speak like the browser ones, and it's really fast. With deno.dev hosting on the edge, it's server side like php, but way better. I used to like WordPress, now I love Deno.

thx for your comment, as i said i might get all wrong. Still think PHP template engines like Twig are well designed and make you highly productive. Personally, I feel JSX is a code smell, as it mixes UI snippets with code. But this is maybe my old school software engineering attitude. I am just waiting for the next OSCommerce package written in JSX...

Exactly. I'm not a great fan of PHP but nothing has produced more killer apps in the last 25 years.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#205

Post by kevinfiol »

bastardoperator wrote: post #199
ArrayBoundCheck wrote: post #154

I don't know what deno is and it appears that I'm the only one. Does this mean it's not for me? Would I want deno on my tiny 1 visit per hour website?

I keep hearing and reading about Deno too but I don't understand why I or my project would need or want it or consider switching to it. What does it give me, how is it better, why is it better. I'm confused on why I would pay for hosting? You're not alone.

If you keep reading about it and still haven't been able to answer those questions, chances are you probably don't need it.

The strengths of Deno over Node are bulleted all over its homepage, but you likely already knew that.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#206

Post by stack_framer »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #137
DanHulton wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually part of why I created Nodewood [1], because every new Node project required pulling all that together, and every new SaaS idea I had had the same basic requirements (user management, subscription management, teams support, etc). Then I figured, if I found this useful, surely others would too, so I packaged it up and have had a few happy customers since then, who have helped me refine it, which feeds…

To each his own, personally I stay away from Django and full fledged frameworks (context: I run a few small saas and launch new products frequently). I find that having to dig to find out how things are done and trying to hack around the framework is the cause of bugs and frustrations. I still manage two services based on Django and they're a continue cause of pain. I'd rather spend a week at the beginning of the pro…

> I'd rather spend a week at the beginning of the project and set things up the way I want them with minimal dependencies.

Me too. I don't use create-react-app or anything else to set up my Node.js/React/TypeScript/SWC projects. I install each package I need manually, and configure each item precisely how I want it (tsconfig.json, webpack.config.ts, .swcrc, even .eslintrc.json). Makes for a nice, lean project every time.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#207

Post by pier25 »

postalrat wrote: post #190
pier25 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory yes, but in practice the majority of modern SPAs are slow and bloated.

Most of the slow SPAs I use are slow because they are waiting for api requests from the server.

That's one reason.

The other is that those API requests need to be rendered with JS which means downloading the JS upfront + rendering time. JS rendering will always be slower than pure HTML rendering.

I will agree for small apps this is negligible, but for bigger apps this means downloading, parsing, and executing MBs of JS. See the Google Cloud console for example or the Spotify web app.

And yet there is another point which is that with SPAs, ignorant developers can cause more "damage". The other day I opened a simple password recovery form, and it rendered dozens and dozens of divs and downloaded (I shit you not) 2MBs of JS.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#208

Post by lucacasonato »

threatofrain wrote: post #177
pxeger1 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deno and Node are not generally compatible: - their module/packaging systems are totally different - their APIs for interacting with the system are different

How far along is the story of cross compilation for the two ecosystems?

Node -> Deno: https://esm.sh

Deno -> Node: https://github.com/denoland/dnt

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#209

Post by postalrat »

pier25 wrote: post #207
postalrat wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the slow SPAs I use are slow because they are waiting for api requests from the server.

That's one reason. The other is that those API requests need to be rendered with JS which means downloading the JS upfront + rendering time. JS rendering will always be slower than pure HTML rendering. I will agree for small apps this is negligible, but for bigger apps this means downloading, parsing, and executing MBs of JS. See the Google Cloud console for example or the Spotify web app. And yet there is another po…

No, usually its some api that's taking 1, 2, 5 or more seconds to respond. Some api written in something that's not javascript.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#210

Post by IshKebab »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #103

This looks like something I'd like to try but I don't like JSX (TSX). Is it possible to use Fresh with Vue in place of Preact, and write Vue components that split HTML templates from script and style tags?

Just curious, why don't you like TSX? I find it much much better than HTML templates because you get actual IDE support with proper code completion and compile time type checking.
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