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When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

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Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#201

Post by Supermancho »

chevill wrote: post #156
zamalek wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Genuine-Apology 1. Know what you did wrong: > When confronted with being told our rendering pipeline had terrible performance, we turned inward. [...] We were wrong. 2. Keep it simple, being careful not to start up a fight, a disagreement, or open up the situation for further discussion or recriminations. Subjective. You decide. 3. Be prepared to meet resistance. They are here meeting t…

>This is a good exhibit of an almost perfect apology. If you've been okay hearing "sorry" your entire life then I am afraid you've been lied to more often than not. If you specifically focus insults on an individual and call into question their competence and then make a vague statement that avoids actually saying you did something wrong ("We turned inwards), you have failed to do #1, which is arguably the most impor…

> It was an awful attempt at an apology

> Counting check marked boxes on a wikihow list isn't a good way to measure the quality of an apology.

If anything, it's a way. Suggest something better for your definition of "good", as it looks like you're making a speculative criticism for your own edification.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#202

Post by calsy »

foobarian wrote: post #123
DHowett wrote: post #30

Another day, another Casey post dunking on my team. Hi! This tweet misses the mark only a little bit; in a previous blog post, we apologized[1] pretty frankly to everyone involved in this discussion. I'll admit that we didn't list him by name, but neither did we list the other handful of folks involved. We should have. In turn, Casey rightly did not acknowledge it except to tell his followers that it was not a real a…

For what it's worth, I think it's commendable that you are engaging this externally no matter the tone, instead of the usual cowardly radio silence like most big cos. I find the this-is-not-actually-an-apology nitpicking disappointing; community should be encouraging this kind of conversation, not squashing it.

They are engaging externally because the issue has gained traction in the community. I also don't think people need to be grateful because they were blessed with a response.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#203

Post by rob74 »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #154
eric_b wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of tone really doesn't engender sympathy: > We get it, Microsoft sucks, we should all be fired, rah rah rah. > I just don't know what else he's asking for here. Credit? Us to die screaming? The blog post is matter-of-fact, and Casey is right: however, he said himself that it was trivial to do this. Is it not acceptable that we use the same language? Your "apology" really is anything but. If anything you and…

> We admit this feature began with a kerfuffle we caused in the summer of 2021. When confronted with being told our rendering pipeline had terrible performance, we turned inward. We relied on our existing experiences and we leaned heavily on our partner teams’ work to conclude the DirectWrite general purpose renderer was the best fit for our product. We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to t…

I don't know about others, but that does sound like a real apology to me. At least they plainly write that they were wrong and not only "sorry for how this was handled" or something similar. I'm really curious what more you could expect...

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#204

Post by ilovefood »

TIPSIO wrote: post #158
lhecker wrote: post #139

Hi! I'm the person who wrote that blog post. If you have any questions whatsoever, please let me know! English is not my native language and "The solution is trivial" was meant sarcastic. The solution isn't trivial at all, nor is it complete, because solving the corner cases is complex. I'd also like to mention ahead of time that DirectWrite/Direct2D is very fast at drawing western (Latin) text without coloring (>200…

This is way above my pay grade. Just don’t take anything personal. Being defensive / know best is in this industry everywhere at all levels and organizations. Being humble in general is hard, being humble in code reviews is harder, being humble to Internet comments in any forum… sometimes impossible. Then repeat that with two super genius experts - eek. You find everyone is usually trying their best if you ever have…

This is great advice (except the server admin part :-) !!)

It's sometimes tough to dissociate the problem with the people involved. Hope this will have a positive resolution as most of the people seem to be experts at what they do.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#205

Post by lhecker »

jffry wrote: post #181
lhecker wrote: post #139

Hi! I'm the person who wrote that blog post. If you have any questions whatsoever, please let me know! English is not my native language and "The solution is trivial" was meant sarcastic. The solution isn't trivial at all, nor is it complete, because solving the corner cases is complex. I'd also like to mention ahead of time that DirectWrite/Direct2D is very fast at drawing western (Latin) text without coloring (>200…

> English is not my native language and "The solution is trivial" was meant sarcastic. The solution isn't trivial at all, nor is it complete, because solving the corner cases is complex. I think it's really difficult to convey sarcasm well in text, and what seems obvious to you as a writer might not come across as sarcasm to readers. I certainly didn't understand that as sarcastic right away. It might be better to ad…

Thank you for your suggestion! I believe I can't just edit the article now, since that would be disingenuous, but I'll try to avoid sarcasm in the future and use something like you suggested instead.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#206

Post by lkxijlewlf »

arcticfox wrote: post #147
Longhanks wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sticking the word "apology" on a letter does not make it an apology.

"we turned inwards, we were wrong. We hope you will accept this ... as an olive branch and accept our apology." That is 100% an apology

But not to Casey. You dotted out who they apologized to and it was not the person they insulted, but to the "community".

> We were wrong. As such, we dedicate this experimental renderer to the community as an olive branch. We know we have so much more to learn, but we hope that you will accept our apology and understand we’re humans behind this product with a capability and willingness to learn from our past mistakes.

Seems rather childish.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#207

Post by ineedasername »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #185
curiousgal wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be empathetic to a jerk who keeps insulting you? I don't get where the big issue is, a guy smugly makes a suggestion, the devs argue with it and point out that his tone isn't helping. The guy turns out to be right, the devs implement his suggestion. They don't have a history of thanking people by name so they make a vague attribution. Guy continues to be hostile against them, dev calls him out and now he's…

> They don't have a history of thanking people by name That's... Not better? EDIT: Actually, I thought of a way for that to be better, but it still doesn't make anything better here . If MS is used to working with b2b, where a customer comes in with a bug and MS fixes it and pushes the fix out, there it could be reasonable to not give credit; I don't condone it but it does match the culture there. The problem is that…

MS: "In our defense, our reflexive response it to never give other people credit for their ideas, so you can see how it's not really our fault, it's just instinct."

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#208

Post by chrisseaton »

TIPSIO wrote: post #198
chrisseaton wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baffles me that people think sarcasm is a good way to communicate on the internet. You are begging to be misunderstood, either accidentally, or maliciously.

It is a good way to communicate though.

Beautiful comment because I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, and your comment works either way.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#209

Post by markus_zhang »

ineedasername wrote: post #200
markus_zhang wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone can rant. I think it's fine, at least a lot better than a faked smile.

A fake smile at least tells me they know that a different response would be unprofessional, rather than making the an unprofessional comment and not being self aware enough to realize it until it's pointed out.

Since this is not a professional place I think it's OK. I mean if Casey can rant then he should be able too. Of course I guess it doesn't look good and I'm fine with that.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#210

Post by bena »

QuikAccount wrote: post #79

Anyone who knows anything about Casey Muratori knows that nice and humble are not usually words associated with him. That is not to say the devs he is calling out are in the right. Frankly, I just see a bunch of combative assholes arguing with each other.

Yeah, DHowett's and LHeckler's responses were kind of dickish, but Casey's own words, tone, and attitude aren't doing him any favors either.

Casey happens to be right on the technical issue in this case and people are just glossing over all the ways in which he was also wrong.

Now, personally, I believe it was the WT Team's responsibility to let it go as they're representatives of a larger organization and as such how they interact with people reflects back on the organization they work for.

But yeah, no heroes in this story.

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