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Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

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Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#201
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perl evolved from being a better AWK awk has named parameters! Perl was a step backwards!

Well it's your lucky day. Named parameters are perl since 5.20 ... as an "experimental" feature ... Now you can write. use v5.20; use feature 'signatures'; sub print_text( $param1 , $language = "perl", $years = 10 ) { say "I would have loved this $language $param1 more then $years years ago"; } print_text "feature"

And I believe that with the next release, a simple

    use v5.36;
will enable the feature.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#202

Perl is really cursed by the past glory. People still trying to revive Perl against modern fad, for example, Python. Fad are powered by steam of live Eco-systems, which Perl once had, but no longer have. There is no real reason why Perl couldn't succeed where Python does other than the path of history. And there is no real reason to chase history today. Rather than looking for killer app or adding modern features, su…

> People still trying to revive Perl against modern fad, for example, Python.

Lmao Python has been around since 1991 only three years after Perl appeared. How's it a fad? Sucess of python is a testament to the difference a simple and beginner-friendly syntax can make as well as the "batteries-included" paradigm. Most people don't realize how much of a difference these things make especially in removing the initial barrier to get started with programming. There's a reason Go language creators enforced a rigid formatting requirement. It not only improves readability but helps in creating clever tools for syntax checking and other tasks. Readability is key, the fact that Perl code is compatible with that 20 years before makes no difference as they have such bad readability (especially quickly made scripts for sysadmin tasks which no newbie can understand and maintain now). So even for now Python is the best choice for shell scripting, eventually until Go takes over. At this point unfortunately I don't see any area where Perl can make a difference compared to other languages.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#203
post #41
post #5

Perl rose to popularity because early web development was all about text processing (reading web forms and outputting HTML) and Perl made that easier (regex deluxe) than other choices on unix at the time. It became the lingua franca of web developers. Perl 5 made heavy use of symbols so it was visually noisy, and then Perl 6 came along and added even more magic meanings to other symbols, and that was a tipping point…

If I understand right you are saying that the # of symbols Perl employs makes it hard to understand or read, correct? TL;DR; I would say that you assertion is context sensitive. - For a junior Perl programmer or an outside expert those symbols are stumbling blocks. - For an intermediate Perl programmer and up, those symbols are tools that make the code more readable and expressive. I got two ways of looking at that.…

> Just because it took longer to learn, that doesn't mean it's better or worse at creating good code. It does mean that armchair pundits are less likely to be correct in their hot takes. They lack experience and understanding

Ah yes the same snobbery and inability to take criticism that's been the standard since the 90s. And people wonder why Perl is dying (so is Emacs, Vim only survived because a significant part of the community decided to break away, refactor create a community that's more engaing and less snobbish). You forget what Perl was made for. Basically a replacement for awk/sed and so on and writing quick scripts that can be used elsewhere. If a newbie want to invest significant time and effort learning a new language why the hell they will spend it on Perl rather than a real language like C/C++ and in more modern times Rust, Go or Swift that actually creates performant code?

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#204
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually a bit more than that. In "Windows Powershell in Action", Bruce Payette (one of the co-designers of Powershell) states: "NOTE PowerShell uses the at symbol (@) in a few places, has $_ as a default variable, and uses & as the function call operator. These elements lead people to say that PowerShell looks like Perl." "In practice, at one point, we did use Perl as a root language, and these elements stem fr…

Perl had an amazing Win32 support back in the day, and still does. https://perldoc.perl.org/Win32 https://metacpan.org/search?size=20&q=win32 RAS, OLE, COM, ODBC. Perl did magick on NT/2K/XP.

VMS too!

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#205
post #183

Perl is really cursed by the past glory. People still trying to revive Perl against modern fad, for example, Python. Fad are powered by steam of live Eco-systems, which Perl once had, but no longer have. There is no real reason why Perl couldn't succeed where Python does other than the path of history. And there is no real reason to chase history today. Rather than looking for killer app or adding modern features, su…

I sympathise with your desire to replace shell scripts, but I don't see why that replacement should be Perl of all things. Like you said, Python has displaced Perl due to ecosystem support, so why chase history here?

Python never succeeded in scripting. Shell still dominates scripting today. Perl is rooted in scripting.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#206

Perl is really cursed by the past glory. People still trying to revive Perl against modern fad, for example, Python. Fad are powered by steam of live Eco-systems, which Perl once had, but no longer have. There is no real reason why Perl couldn't succeed where Python does other than the path of history. And there is no real reason to chase history today. Rather than looking for killer app or adding modern features, su…

> People still trying to revive Perl against modern fad, for example, Python. Lmao Python has been around since 1991 only three years after Perl appeared. How's it a fad? Sucess of python is a testament to the difference a simple and beginner-friendly syntax can make as well as the "batteries-included" paradigm. Most people don't realize how much of a difference these things make especially in removing the initial ba…

> Lmao Python has been around since 1991 only three years after Perl appeared. How's it a fad?

If everyone start wearing pink this year, that's a fad. A fad has nothing to do with when the stuff was invented. It only has to do with people choosing it from the dominant reason being other people chooses it.

> Sucess of python is a testament to the difference a simple and beginner-friendly syntax can make as well as the "batteries-included" paradigm.

So why Python didn't succeed when Perl dominated? As you said, Python was around for quite a while then. "Simple", "beginner-friendly", "batteries-included" are all subjective terms that none of them I think is true compared to Perl. That mostly comes from one's background and culture, not worth to debate.

> the fact that Perl code is compatible with that 20 years before makes no difference as they have such bad readability

Writing Perl the way one writes shell scripts is what gets Perl's write-only rep. Do not write scripts the way we write shell scripts. Write scripts the way we write code -- That is my motivation to replace shell scripts with Perl.

There is no easy way to write readable shell scripts. Perl has all the language features that enables writing readable code. Using bad practitioner as argument for bad language is a bad logic. But if all you saw were bad practitioners (or more likely today, one haven't seen real practitioners by hears about the bad rep and see some bad relics), then it's hard to convince you. Perl has formatter. Perl has strict mode (that should be default). Perl has best practices. The people still using Perl today knows this. People who claim Perl is unreadable are getting that from the 90s.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Readability of code is paramount. For almost all languages, Perl included, this onus is mainly on the programmer. You can churn out gritty spaghetti in almost any language. Perl code doesn't have to look like what Perl programmers put out in the 90s. It's an old misconception that people refuse to let go of.

>You can churn out gritty spaghetti in almost any language But some languages make this much easier than others

That should not be misconstrued as Perl making it hard to write clean code. It does not. It swings both ways.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Larry Wall's latest project was called "Perl 6" but has been renamed "Raku"-- in belated recognition that it really is a new language, and Perl is going to continue being Perl. The main reason to learn Raku at present is simply that it's profoundly different from most other things out there-- there's no particular "killer app" that's emerged for it, but it's unusual enough that this might happen yet (no one exp…

Thank you to provide 1, 2, 3 above. I didn't know about these! I am surprised you didn't mention Perl 11 which is try to mash Perl 5 and 6/Raku together. Is that still happening? Or do I have it wrong? "How Perl compares to Python": The first thing I tell Perl programmers who are starting to learn Python: There are Perl-style references in Python. (If you are not familiar with Perl: These are a roughly pointers, and…

perl 11 is dead. It was never much more than a mirage by a few people outside of the Perl community. It was definitely not something supported by what is now the Raku community.

Re: Perl, the first postmodern computer language (1999)

#209
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree with you. For fun I built Perl 1 a couple years ago and was amazed at how similar it was to Perl 5. In fact most of the test suite from Perl 1 runs unmodified on Perl 5. The subroutine calling syntax was different (it used `do xxx();` I think) so those tests fail. But unfortunately, some Perl devs in recent years keep thinking that what they need to do is break stuff to "modernize". They keep eyeing goa…

> But unfortunately, some Perl devs in recent years keep thinking that what they need to do is break stuff to "modernize". Isn't it the whole point of Raku (previously Perl 6)?

Indeed it was. But no more. The Perl community has decided to make many of the mistakes again. It is very frustrating.
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