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Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

economist.com

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Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#201

Post by maxdo »

croes wrote: post #171
maxdo wrote: post #78

Hope this Russian-Ukraine tensions, also China-Taiwan tensions will open eyes of western world like it happened with Europe during WWII. Collapse of Soviet Union influenced western world badly. They relaxed and eased requirements whom to work with. We need at least to introduce tyranny tax, same as carbon tax. That will give a good boost of local economies also gives a proper signal to the entire world.

That's naive world view. Putin wouldn't have happened with capitalist errors under Yelzin. And the west never cared about whom to work with as long the got their needed resources. And the west has a long tradition of using countries with lack of environmental and human rights to produce their products or get needed resources. We complain about Ukraine and Taiwan but about the Yemen we don't care. Because there seem t…

that's the same problem just some of them causing west troubles, some of them don't. The question is why we even allow to do so. Wasn't that clear in 2014 with russia that it's extremely aggressive? Kicking out russia from economy in 2014 would prevent such events. China also had so many times you can stop it, or at least put the world on other track.

it's not about capitalism. Current time is the most close to WWIII , if Russia and China will decide to attack Ukraine and Taiwan right now. What would west do?

Most likely the answer is nothing. You just need to hit hard. And that's how WWII started.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#202

Post by ww_wpg »

bettysdiagnose wrote: post #175
nindalf wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: apologies to anyone who read my comment analysing the situation and assumed that I’m some kind of warmonger. At no point did I advocate for Taiwan to be annexed. I merely pointed out that China really wants to and they’re stronger than ever in 2021. Shoutout to the dude who implied I’m a Nazi for saying this. Why would they give up on this “charade” as you put it? They’re closer than ever to annexing Taiwan in…

I thought the Chinese bullying of Australia has been largely recognised as a failure. Australia just exported to elsewhere (e.g. a lot more coal to India). If China invades Taiwan then most likely the USA goes to war over it. Anything else is to accept the final end of US leadership in the world. If we're going to end the world and kill billions then I guess it might as well be over something as honourable as Taiwane…

"what should we have done then, when the Chinese invaded Taiwan?"

"anything at all besides what you did"

- On the Beach (2000)

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#203

Post by jeswin »

627467 wrote: post #173
FooBarWidget wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't that easy. It's not just China's government that believes Taiwan is part of China — China's people also believe that. There is a saying that if China is democratic, they would have invaded Taiwan yesterday. Or another saying: if the president lets go of Taiwan, the CCP would be overthrown tomorrow. Another factor that complicates things is the fact that Taiwan is a strategic location for the US's military co…

You are also missing the part where the Taiwanese have always held an ambiguous stance towards reunification/independence. I would bet that a Scottish-style ref in Taiwan (which would be tantamount to declaration of independence and hence, dead on arrival) may yield a surprising similar response: no majority support for independence.

> You are also missing the part where the Taiwanese have always held an ambiguous stance towards reunification/independence.

You are also missing the part where the ambiguous stance is mostly a consequence of China's threat of immediate violence if independence is ever declared. Taiwanese support for reunification is under 15% or so - and even lower among Taiwanese who were born in Taiwan. Why would they, when their living standards are way higher than China's and they live a free country?

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#204

Post by sudosysgen »

nabla9 wrote: post #164

China has had only one leader who was educated in the West: Deng Xiaoping. Deng was sent to Paris in 1920 when he was 16 where he attented middle schools, in 1926 he studied in Moscow. He moved back to China in 1927. Deng understood the West and was able to advance Chinese interests. Xi Jinping is complete opposite of Deng. Xi has no understanding of other cultures. Russia under Putin bullies and plays brinkmanship d…

Xi spent multiple years living (correction, only a few weeks) in the US. You are off the mark. There are other, much more complex reasons in play.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#205

Post by croes »

chongli wrote: post #43
jeidz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can. The western world can’t afford to be without China’s manufacturing, though.

Sure we can. It may hurt a lot at first but we'll get over it. Think about how hard it was to rebuild after WW2. This would be nowhere near that difficult since none of the west is a bombed-out ruin today and all of the west is made up of advanced economies with highly educated populations. Furthermore, there are developing countries (such as Vietnam) that are going full-steam-ahead with ramping up production, especi…

You forget the resources the west gets from China, partly China is not only the main source but the only source. The economy nowadays is much more fragile than back then, the price increase alone would be destructive enough, especially for low-income earners.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#206

Post by Aeolun »

motiejus wrote: post #200

I am Lithuanian; Lithuania Taiwan PRC conflict is frequently a topic of discussion these days among my peers. My position, shared by a few others, is that this is the next best thing that happened in Lithuania after leaving USSR: the first being joining NATO and EU in 2004. Everyone in the world can (and almost everyone do) endorse PRC. "You won't get fired for picking IBM/Oracle/PRC". While very few countries have t…

Even if you lose all business with China, in the long term that is better.

It’s disturbing I cannot buy goods that are not (at least partially) made in China.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#207

Post by sfe22 »

notpachet wrote: post #199
sfe22 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. I think we have been warned more than enough. You afraid? Stay at home and lock down. (Didn’t stay home and) got sick? Your problem if no space is available. Split hospitals 50% covid and continue the rest as usual with limited capacity. We cannot control covid anymore and this was apparent just a few months in. Stop supporting authoritarianism and get real.

> Split hospitals 50% covid and continue the rest as usual with limited capacity Let me know when you've accomplished this. We'll wait.

The percentage was just a wild guess. Its just that some resources need to be allocated to covid and the rest should continue as usual. That could be up to free market to decide, not me or you or some almighty “leaders”.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#208

Post by FooBarWidget »

zucker42 wrote: post #188
FooBarWidget wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't that easy. It's not just China's government that believes Taiwan is part of China — China's people also believe that. There is a saying that if China is democratic, they would have invaded Taiwan yesterday. Or another saying: if the president lets go of Taiwan, the CCP would be overthrown tomorrow. Another factor that complicates things is the fact that Taiwan is a strategic location for the US's military co…

I don't buy this. If the government would stop making "reunification" so prominent in official rhetoric, eventually there would be room to back down from the hardline view on Taiwan. Maybe not tomorrow, but certainly in 30 or 50 years. The government is feeding the flames of nationalism by making Taiwan such a prominent issue. The reason the CCP won't back down on Taiwan is not because they can't, but exactly because…

Saying that Taiwan is merely a nationalism and internal unity issue, and that people's views are merely a result of propaganda, ignores the very history of how Taiwan came to be and how the Chinese civil war developed. Your take also ignores the fact that unification is Chinese core value, which is valued more than western freedom of speech, and that this core value has been around for thousands of years.

But more importantly, you dodged the military strategic significance of Taiwan. Telling China to give up Taiwan is like asking China to give cut off its lifeline.

At the end of the day, your point boils down to that China ought not to think that way, for reasons that you believe are the only legitimate reasons. But that is useless: Chinese do view things that way, and if foreign forces pressure China to let Taiwan go, then they will fight to the end.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#209

Post by [deleted] »

motiejus wrote: post #200

I am Lithuanian; Lithuania Taiwan PRC conflict is frequently a topic of discussion these days among my peers. My position, shared by a few others, is that this is the next best thing that happened in Lithuania after leaving USSR: the first being joining NATO and EU in 2004. Everyone in the world can (and almost everyone do) endorse PRC. "You won't get fired for picking IBM/Oracle/PRC". While very few countries have t…

[deleted]

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#210

Post by nindalf »

thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #162
nindalf wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: apologies to anyone who read my comment analysing the situation and assumed that I’m some kind of warmonger. At no point did I advocate for Taiwan to be annexed. I merely pointed out that China really wants to and they’re stronger than ever in 2021. Shoutout to the dude who implied I’m a Nazi for saying this. Why would they give up on this “charade” as you put it? They’re closer than ever to annexing Taiwan in…

>> Why would they give up on this “charade” as you put it? They’re closer than ever to annexing Taiwan in 2021. They hold every card. Except how the rest of the world would react. It seems like a recipe for war.

The rest of the world is scared of even offending China by calling Taiwan a country. You really think they’re going to go to war over Taiwan?
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