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Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

economist.com

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Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#171

Post by croes »

maxdo wrote: post #78

Hope this Russian-Ukraine tensions, also China-Taiwan tensions will open eyes of western world like it happened with Europe during WWII. Collapse of Soviet Union influenced western world badly. They relaxed and eased requirements whom to work with. We need at least to introduce tyranny tax, same as carbon tax. That will give a good boost of local economies also gives a proper signal to the entire world.

That's naive world view. Putin wouldn't have happened with capitalist errors under Yelzin.

And the west never cared about whom to work with as long the got their needed resources. And the west has a long tradition of using countries with lack of environmental and human rights to produce their products or get needed resources.

We complain about Ukraine and Taiwan but about the Yemen we don't care. Because there seem to be good and bad tyrannies. Russia, China bad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar good. Iraq good as long they fought Iran, bad a soon as they attacked Qatar and threatened our oil.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#172

Post by jessaustin »

Galanwe wrote: post #98
gedy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't see the point or value at this stage. They control their media tightly, and if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care. They've proven they don't need Taiwan and vice versa.

> if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care Not at all. For a mainlander, Taiwan _is_ a region of China, think of it as Hawai for the US. People in the west see Taiwan as a separate country that China tries to forcibly absorb. People in mainland see Taiwan as a region of China that tries to be independent. Also, there is a lot of eyes on the Taiwan case from mainlanders…

For a mainlander, Taiwan _is_ a region of China, think of it as Hawai for the US.

Where I live in the Midwest USA, nobody would care if Hawai'i claimed its independence in some not-harmful-to-tourists-nor-threatening-to-military-fuel-depots fashion.

That doesn't mean it would be easy. Much as was seen in the original USA annexation of Hawai'i, it is very common for interested parties to create violence where none naturally exists.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#173

Post by 627467 »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #99
subroutine wrote: post #44

China would be much better off if they just gave up on the whole Taiwan charade. I understand how badly they want to put Taiwan under thumb like they did HK, but Taiwan is really the only issue I foresee with potential to derail China's progress.

It isn't that easy. It's not just China's government that believes Taiwan is part of China — China's people also believe that. There is a saying that if China is democratic, they would have invaded Taiwan yesterday. Or another saying: if the president lets go of Taiwan, the CCP would be overthrown tomorrow. Another factor that complicates things is the fact that Taiwan is a strategic location for the US's military co…

You are also missing the part where the Taiwanese have always held an ambiguous stance towards reunification/independence.

I would bet that a Scottish-style ref in Taiwan (which would be tantamount to declaration of independence and hence, dead on arrival) may yield a surprising similar response: no majority support for independence.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#174

Post by yololol »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #110
lmilcin wrote: post #4

There is a simple solution. If most of western world allowed Taiwan embassies China would have to relent. They can't afford having entire western world stand against them. Unfortunately, that would require western nations to agree on something.

I think you greatly underestimates what Taiwan means to China. People in the west are quick to dismiss any claims by China on Taiwan as having any legitimacy, viewing it purely as expansionism. But regardless of whether the western view of that is right (or ought to be right), the Chinese don't view it that way: they view it as a sovereignty issue, as an unfinished part of the Chinese civil war, and as part of the US…

Exactly. Moreover, countries that support Taiwan don't do it to liberate "poor Taiwanese people from bad China's tyranny". Instead, they will use that as an excuse to back actions that support their own national interests. Exactly like what China does. Personally I understand everyone's point of view in this game, yet I wish Taiwanese people could be left alone to live as they wish. What's certain is that it's a more complicated situation that people tend to oversimplify, as usual.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#175

Post by bettysdiagnose »

nindalf wrote: post #146
subroutine wrote: post #44

China would be much better off if they just gave up on the whole Taiwan charade. I understand how badly they want to put Taiwan under thumb like they did HK, but Taiwan is really the only issue I foresee with potential to derail China's progress.

Edit: apologies to anyone who read my comment analysing the situation and assumed that I’m some kind of warmonger. At no point did I advocate for Taiwan to be annexed. I merely pointed out that China really wants to and they’re stronger than ever in 2021. Shoutout to the dude who implied I’m a Nazi for saying this. Why would they give up on this “charade” as you put it? They’re closer than ever to annexing Taiwan in…

I thought the Chinese bullying of Australia has been largely recognised as a failure. Australia just exported to elsewhere (e.g. a lot more coal to India).

If China invades Taiwan then most likely the USA goes to war over it. Anything else is to accept the final end of US leadership in the world. If we're going to end the world and kill billions then I guess it might as well be over something as honourable as Taiwanese freedom and in the broader name of freedom, human rights and democracy. Human civilisation could end in a far more banal way.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#176

Post by RyEgswuCsn »

hn_throwaway_69 wrote: post #159
RyEgswuCsn wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, one should note that The Epoch Times is brought to you by the propaganda arm of the anti-CCP Falun gong.

China always calls people and organisations who disagree with the government nasty names. Terrorists, propagandists, meddlers, revolutionists etc. This continual name-calling of anyone who criticises any aspect of their government leads me to always doubt the sincerity of such accusations. Boy who cried wolf, writ large. Could you provide independent sources that this Falun Gong spreads propaganda?

Don't believe either CCP or me? How about NYT?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/technology/epoch-times-in...

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#177

Post by yeetman21 »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #46
lmilcin wrote: post #4

There is a simple solution. If most of western world allowed Taiwan embassies China would have to relent. They can't afford having entire western world stand against them. Unfortunately, that would require western nations to agree on something.

Nah, it would require them to put principles over the profit of a few constituents. China's geopolitical strategy is brilliant. They see that their adversaries in democratic western countries are beholden to the quarterly profits of a handful of corporations. China, unlike any of the Western nations, WILL take a stand on their principles over profit (At least they seem to, but more on that in a second.) So, they've r…

To play devils advocate to prevent this place from turning into an echo chamber:

You say "put principles over the profit of a few constituents", and that is a very widely held slogan or catch phrase.

Whose constituents? I, as a constituent, very much like not having a war going on where I could be drafted and sent to die for some people I do not know or really care about. I, as a constituent, very much like not having to pay 5k for a phone or 10k for a computer. I, as a constituent, like the cheap products that trade has allowed me to buy.

Whoes principles? America's manifest destiny principle is to take everything you can take and then fight weaker neighbors to take some more. Is it fair that we, Americans, got to do our dirty work in the past and make our country whole while other countries have to be plagued by a civil war?

The only actual principle that maters when it comes to countries is might makes right. The US was mighty so it could crush the Indians, the Mexicans, the Spanish and take what was "rightfully ours". The US was mighty so it could crush the CSA during the civil war. The US was mighty so they could use the threat of force to protect Taiwanese independence or de facto-independence. The UK was mighty so they could crush China and take HK. Now that China is (questionably? maybe?) mighty, they want to take back HK, they want to take over Taiwan. Now when other countries are mighty, the rules of the game suddenly change so that it is no longer might makes right but human rights and democracy and peace and sham pretending about principles?

I like human rights and I would generally support people being free (whatever that means), but is it not hard to see the hypocrisy in it all? Where were the principles when we beat up the Indians and Mexicans and grabbed up all of California? Where were the principles when we beat up all the LATAM countries who tried to have democratic elections. Where were the principles when we drone striked every adult man and called them all combatants since they were within the age range?

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#178

Post by sudosysgen »

philliphaydon wrote: post #170
sudosysgen wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only need to believe them to realize they're an insane racist cult.

Considering the CCP has along history of going after religion and is persecuting religion and religious people to this day, its difficult to believe that it's a 'racist cult' when prior to 1999 it was fine, and then the CCP realised it was gaining popularity and all of a sudden it's declared an evil cult that the CCP has used to blame everything on over the years.

This is all completely irrelevant to the argument at hand. According to the Falun Gong themselves all interracial children are barred from Heaven, with their own special racism class system. I'm not quoting anyone but themselves.

Beyond that, cults are obviously more dangerous the larger they are. That goes by itself.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#179

Post by croes »

satronaut wrote: post #138
notpachet wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Omicron is real. It's having very tangible impacts on the ability of countries to provide necessary healthcare services to their citizens. People who normally should be first in line to receive care (cancer patients and the like) are having their critical services interrupted or deferred. Just because you personally don't see the impact doesn't mean it isn't there.

Source please? It sounds like the most mild of all the 99.97% survival rate variants of covid. If you don't want to get sick, then stay home, but don't tell me how to live my life

The recent study about Omicrons severity is from South Africa where 80% were already infected, so mild symptoms could just be because it's the second infection. The severity of Omicron as a first time infection is not researched enough.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#180

Post by 627467 »

albeva wrote: post #54

I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Wonder if China would kick out every single EU nation embassy then?

You are aware that in the new world order in the making Europe is NOT shifting towards American geopolitical priorities, right? If anything Europe wants nothing to do with thorny issues that are bad for business (which Europe has plenty with China)
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