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Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

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Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#201

Post by 0xy »

pseudalopex wrote: post #183
0xy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ethics of using risky dangerous drugs on children (who grow out of GD over 50% of the time) is pretty clear cut to me. You risk permanent bone damage for the minority of cases where it has some advantages? The "advantages" are apparently easier transgender surgery, which in its current form is essentially a disaster. The operation is brutal and the results are rarely good. The majority of the time there are serio…

Almost certainly your desistance statistic comes from studies including children who didn't meet the criteria for gender dysphoria.[1] Puberty blockers have been prescribed for early onset puberty for over 30 years. Their primary effects reverse naturally after treatment stops. Studies found they affect bone density temporarily when used for early onset puberty. And not dangerously. Trans patients tend to take them l…

>Their primary effects reverse naturally after treatment stops

Absolute fabrication, and a dangerous one at that. Bone density loss is permanent, and there are numerous documented cases of fracturing, broken bones and otherwise -- including from pro-transgender clinics. [1]

This is what I mean when I criticize the community for papering over serious dangers. Your words are reckless and dangerous.

>That distress breaks some people

Given the suicidality evidence, there's precisely zero proof that transgender surgeries benefit people at all, considering the rate of suicide post-operation is substantially higher than a normal person, and virtually unchanged from pre-operation.

This means that those surgeries offer no benefits for suicidal behavior whatsoever. The other "benefits" appear to be subjective? How are they "not broken" if they're dead from suicide? Serious question, because nobody ever seems to be able to tell me why these surgeries are a benefit given the grim statistics.

>You don't speak for them in calling present surgeries a disaster.

I never put words in their mouths, I simply read the mountains of evidence in their own communities, and from their own advocacy groups. [2]

Have you seen the results first hand enough to say that I'm wrong? Some of these surgeries are legitimately disasters. I mean permanent damage and zero functional use, with lifelong ramifications (daily upkeep, multiple corrective surgeries, serious problems with basic functions etc).

>What does any of this have to do with Dave Chappelle making jokes at trans people's expense?

If you watched his show, you would've noted that he was making jokes about them because they cannot take a joke like most people can. They cannot even take reasonable debate.

J.K. Rowling posts an opinion they don't like and thousands of them bombard her with death threats, hateful vitriol and otherwise.

Why can't they take a joke? Gay people can take a joke. Black people can take a joke. White people can take a joke. That's his point.

[1] https://segm.org/the_effect_of_puberty_blockers_on_the_accru...

[2] https://old.reddit.com/r/Transgender_Surgeries

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#202

Post by stemlord »

david38 wrote: post #164
0x5f3759df-i wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched it as well. All nuance on the topic has been obliterated by the topic being absorbed into the larger culture war, but above anything it just wasn't funny. On net, the people calling Chapelle out are more correct than his defenders. He really did spend an hour making unfunny jokes at trans people's expense. Was the whole thing as bad as many who didn't watch it are assuming based on a few cherry picked quote…

What’s unfunny to you is funny to someone else. Almost all jokes are at someone’s expense. Nothing illegal was said, so if you don’t like it, just don’t watch it, it’s really that simple. I get tired of the tyranny of the minority telling me what I’m allowed to do.

>if you don’t like it, just don’t watch it, it’s really that simple.

No, it's not that simple. I hate this term but Chapelle is by all means a THOUGHT LEADER, meaning he has a megaphone into the minds of huge swaths of the population esp with a platform like Netflix. Everyone must fight for the world they want to live in.

>I get tired of the tyranny of the minority telling me what I’m allowed to do

Get over yourself. YOU are the one who's tired?

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#203

Post by deanCommie »

undoware wrote: post #59
AJRF wrote: post #25

I just watched it. I don’t feel like I live in a real world anymore. This whole outrage is manufactured and there are so many resellers. Dave spends the last 15 minutes of the show telling a heartbreaking story of how he made friends with a transgender woman, and invited her to open his show for him, she sucked but then when she was being herself during the show and afterwards backstage she had everyone howling with…

Not knowing where to begin, I'll simply say that I was political before I was a person, because your culture made me this way. There is no part of my personhood that is not political. Chapelle rounded out his bit by embracing trans exclusionism, thereby denying that trans women -- including the woman he had backstage to, as you so delicately put it, suck him off -- are doing anything other than lying about who they -…

He specifically said in the show "Trans women are women" (or the double negative version which is "I am not saying that to say, that trans women aren’t women")

He also used the term "man with a vagina" during a genuine heartfelt admonition of the cruelty of bathroom bills. (Which would also be correctly gendering transmen)

So yes, he did end the show with a deliberate misgendering of his trans friend for a joke. And that to me is problematic for sure. But on balance this fits with the rest of his style of humor - he calls women bitches in the show too. Does that mean he is sexist? Or is it an artistic choice. I know people that despise him just for that even before we get to any of his positions on trans people.

But i think fundamentally, on balance, he is pro trans rights, and he recognizes trans people's brain gender.

Should he have said "I'm team TERF?" fuck no. Should he have said that he supports JKR? No. Now all the people who do NOT agree with all of the above points are leaping to support him - and they haven't seen the show any more than his critics.

But i do think he had some valid points. JKR was wrong. Unquestionably. But the reaction she got was much more extreme than the points she made. People treat her as if she was calling for the genocide of trans people.

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#204

Post by 0x5f3759df-i »

david38 wrote: post #164
0x5f3759df-i wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched it as well. All nuance on the topic has been obliterated by the topic being absorbed into the larger culture war, but above anything it just wasn't funny. On net, the people calling Chapelle out are more correct than his defenders. He really did spend an hour making unfunny jokes at trans people's expense. Was the whole thing as bad as many who didn't watch it are assuming based on a few cherry picked quote…

What’s unfunny to you is funny to someone else. Almost all jokes are at someone’s expense. Nothing illegal was said, so if you don’t like it, just don’t watch it, it’s really that simple. I get tired of the tyranny of the minority telling me what I’m allowed to do.

The only one telling people what to do here is you

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#205

Post by da39a3ee »

da39a3ee wrote: post #171
dragonwriter wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I meant "XX, i.e. the sex that bears children in mammals". There are fertile XY females among mammals (including humans.)

Can you post a link to what you’re referring to? I don’t think I was aware that there were fertile XY females in humans. But in any case, the point is that biology is messy and always has rare exceptions. As an engineer I’m sure you appreciate the value of simple definitions that capture 99% of the diversity accurately.

I found one paper describing one case. Is that what you're referring to? If so I'm guessing you haven't had much exposure to biology -- definitions always have counter examples in biology. The important thing is to have simple definitions that get at the core conceptual structure. "Females are XX humans; males are XY humans" is one such definition, questioned only by a small contingent of non scientific social activists in western countries in the last decade or so.

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#206

Post by fleddr »

dang wrote: post #200
fleddr wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't consider any of these examples personal attacks, so I hereby agree: please do ban my account.

"Get over yourself" is not only a personal attack, it's an internet personal attack trope.

Agree to disagree. Like I said, please ban my account. No need to further waste each other's time.

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#207

Post by Graffur »

micromacrofoot wrote: post #151
Graffur wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you watch it though.. its not about him having a trans friend? He states multiple times he's a feminist and relates to struggles people have in life. He sides with JK Rowling. That doesn't make him bad.. that makes him sane!

it isn’t a “sides” thing really… trans women are asking to be treated like women and some people feel the need to say “no”

It looks like you're not read up on the ongoing discussion around this topic.

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#208

Post by DanBC »

0xy wrote: post #201
pseudalopex wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost certainly your desistance statistic comes from studies including children who didn't meet the criteria for gender dysphoria.[1] Puberty blockers have been prescribed for early onset puberty for over 30 years. Their primary effects reverse naturally after treatment stops. Studies found they affect bone density temporarily when used for early onset puberty. And not dangerously. Trans patients tend to take them l…

>Their primary effects reverse naturally after treatment stops Absolute fabrication, and a dangerous one at that. Bone density loss is permanent, and there are numerous documented cases of fracturing, broken bones and otherwise -- including from pro-transgender clinics. [1] This is what I mean when I criticize the community for papering over serious dangers. Your words are reckless and dangerous. >That distress break…

Most of the points you're making have been robustly debunked by actual science, which is I guess why you're not quoting anything from a credible source.

Your bone density argument is particularly stupid, and you don't appear to realise that you're waving a big red flag. Anyone with any knowledge about this knows the study you're referring to (but that you haven't read and haven't linked to), and knows the more recent studies that overturn those results (and you don't even know those studies exist, because you're getting your information from very selective sources).

Correlation isn't causation, and that's important for PBs and bone density because we know trans teens can have lower bone density even when they've never had PBs.

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#209

Post by foldr »

bigwavedave wrote: post #101
Omnitaus wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not get married in the US until less than a decade ago. I can legally be fired in roughly half of the member states of our union based on my identity. I can be legally denied healthcare treatment. This isn't even getting into discrimination with random individuals, which can and does happen in the west. Unfortunately "we don't stone our queers" is not something you get a golden sticker for. I get it's very en…

> I can legally be fired in roughly half of the member states of our union based on my identity. What? Where? And how? "At will" is one thing, but being fired purely because of how you identify? What? > I can be legally denied healthcare treatment. Wait, what? Are you talking about about all healthcare, specific procedures, or what? As far as I know, an ER can't refuse to provide healthcare treatment so you must be r…

It was legal in the US (in some states) to fire people for being gay or transgender until very recently: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/15/sup...

If you really didn’t know this, you might seriously consider whether you have anything to add to this kind of discussion.

The healthcare issue is more complex. Here’s a useful summary: https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/07/23/you-dont-want-second-b...

Re: Netflix fires organizer of trans employee walkout

#210

Post by bigwavedave »

foldr wrote: post #209
bigwavedave wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can legally be fired in roughly half of the member states of our union based on my identity. What? Where? And how? "At will" is one thing, but being fired purely because of how you identify? What? > I can be legally denied healthcare treatment. Wait, what? Are you talking about about all healthcare, specific procedures, or what? As far as I know, an ER can't refuse to provide healthcare treatment so you must be r…

It was legal in the US (in some states) to fire people for being gay or transgender until very recently: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/15/sup... If you really didn’t know this, you might seriously consider whether you have anything to add to this kind of discussion. The healthcare issue is more complex. Here’s a useful summary: https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/07/23/you-dont-want-second-b...

> If you really didn't know this, you might seriously consider whether you have anything to add to this discussion.

Two things here:

1) Being snarky with someone asking a sincere question is a wonderful way to alienate them and leave a bad taste in their mouth regarding the topic at hand.

2) The parent said they "can be fired", not "until over a year ago, I could have been fired". They were asserting that this is the current state of affairs, which it isn't, so I asked a sincere question about it. If asking questions to clarify a statement doesn't "add to the discussion", clearly I was taught how to have a conversation incorrectly. But I, and most rational people, don't think that's accurate. So, y'know, maybe take your own advice and consider what your comment brings to the table instead of trying to dunk on people.

As for healthcare, I appreciate the link. It confirms what I was wondering, which is that the parent's comment only applies to specific, specialty services and not the general umbrella of "healthcare".

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