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Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

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Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#201

Post by 1e-9 »

nxmnxm99 wrote: post #192
1e-9 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In math there is the concept of having a first element... There is also the mathematical concept of not having a first element of a sequence, where each element has an infinite number of elements indexed before it. You seem to be arguing that the existence of a mathematical concept implies that the universe must follow it. In this case, you have one concept that implies a first element and another that implies no f…

No, he’s implying that an infinite series doesn’t have to be infinite in both directions to be infinite.

>...doesn’t have to be...

That argues that there might be a first.

To be clear, I’m not saying there isn’t a first. I’m just saying this particular argument doesn’t support the assertion.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#202

Post by omarfarooq »

diskzero wrote: post #199
omarfarooq wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of the Islamic tradition, Allah [lit. The God] is both transcendent and immanent. Quran 50:16 states that Allah is closer to man than his jugular vein and Quran 2:115 states that wherever you turn, there is the Face of Allah. Now to answer why He cares, the Quran states that He specifically created mankind to know Him. And indeed, the recurring injunction in the Quran is to remember Allah, because you alread…

This is a tangent, but I don't have many opportunities to speak to people knowledgeable of Islam. Is there a concept of original sin in Islam? Do we need to seek forgiveness or salvation?

Islam does not have a concept of original sin attached to the descending of mankind to earth. Adam and his wife disobeying the command to eat from the forbidden tree is described as a "slip" in the Quran, not a monstrosity of a rebellion as seen in Christianity. Indeed, the Quran also says that before even creating Adam, Allah announced [to the angels] the purpose of Adam and his offspring is to be put on the earth as a vicegerent (Quran 2:30).

I define salvation as: 'being preserved in Heaven', and in Islam this is sought through forgiveness.

Quran 39:53 Say, “O servants of Mine who have transgressed against their own selves, do not despair of Allah’s Mercy. Surely, Allah will forgive all sins. Surely, He is the One who is the Most Forgiving, the Ever Merciful."

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#203

Post by [deleted] »

tshaddox wrote: post #200
nassimsoftware wrote: post #176

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God i…

The problem you describe works in both directions though. If God is introduced to explain, say, the existence of the Universe, and you’re not allowed to ask what created God or why God exists, then why not just say you’re not allowed to ask what created the Universe or why the Universe exists?

[deleted]

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#204

Post by bytelines »

simondotau wrote: post #169
bytelines wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN stays online through the work of humans. The community thrives by following guidelines, among them: * be kind * do not sneer * do not call names * respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize

I am 110% in support of those community principles when it comes to criticism of people. We must always assume mutual respect, practice kindness and argue in good faith. It's never not the right thing to do, whether you're motivated by persuasion or simple humanity. But can we at least recognise that there's an enormous distinction between criticism of people and criticism of ideas? In my estimation, when someone is…

Ideas shouldn't be beyond criticism, sure. But if you can't criticize an idea without being unkind, resorting to name calling, and misrepresenting someones view -- at best you aren't haven't a dialog, at worst you don't have any valid criticism to contribute.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#205

Post by diskzero »

omarfarooq wrote: post #202
diskzero wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a tangent, but I don't have many opportunities to speak to people knowledgeable of Islam. Is there a concept of original sin in Islam? Do we need to seek forgiveness or salvation?

Islam does not have a concept of original sin attached to the descending of mankind to earth. Adam and his wife disobeying the command to eat from the forbidden tree is described as a "slip" in the Quran, not a monstrosity of a rebellion as seen in Christianity. Indeed, the Quran also says that before even creating Adam, Allah announced [to the angels] the purpose of Adam and his offspring is to be put on the earth a…

Thanks for the information and the pointers to the text in the Quran. Time to do some reading!

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#206

Post by lordnacho »

nassimsoftware wrote: post #176

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God i…

But logic doesn't need to be created. The problem here is the idea of existence. There doesn't actually need to be a universe for the laws of logic still to be what they are. It's like how algorithms have the complexity they have regardless of whether computers exist, or whether they're made with silicon or buckets of water.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#207

Post by whatshisface »

nxmnxm99 wrote: post #190
beebmam wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there isn't? Isn't just the belief in a God going to affect the way you think and act? We know for a fact that particles can come into existence spontaneously from a vacuum; it is happening literally all the time.

Where does the vacuum come from? What causes a particle to emerge from a vacuum?

The question you're asking about where the vacuum came from is the good one, we can answer the second by reference to the laws governing the vacuum.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#208

Post by anders_p »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #170
mensetmanusman wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point it’s not a gap but an empty set.

The Universe has always existed. It does not have a beginning, and it won't have an end. I'm not talking about the 13.4B old Universe we live in. I'm talking about the Universe that came before it. The Universe is cyclical.

Its a nice idea. There'd be no ending or beginning to worry about. Everything would be self-contained.

But I don't believe that our universe is neither unique, neverending, or cyclical.

I believe that our universe is just one of many, that exists on a super-dimensional plane (or substrate - not sure what word to use), where 'universes' continously appear and disappear, like bubbles in boiling water.

Every one of these universes will have different sets of laws, or rather, the laws will be tweaked differently, depending on the exact conditions of how they form.

Most will not be valid. They will 'pop' or implode near instantaneously. Some will not have the right values for constants like gravity and speed of light.

But every once in a while, there will be a universe where the laws are just perfect for what we see in our universe. A place where stars and planets can form. Where the right elements appear, and life as we know it is possible.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#209

Post by jayd16 »

nassimsoftware wrote: post #176

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God i…

Without time how can you even conceptualize causation or determine what created what?

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#210

Post by anders_p »

dQw4w9WgXcQ wrote: post #181
thaumasiotes wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cuz "nothing" sure didn't make the universe. How do you know?

Can you point to science that empirically demonstrates something coming from absolutely nothing?

Can you point to science that empirically demonstrates that the universe didn't come from absolutely nothing?

No, right? So the idea that nothing can come from nothing, is based on an assumption.

Which was the entire point of the comment you responded to, if I'm not mistaken.

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