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Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

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Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#181

Post by dQw4w9WgXcQ »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #129
unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #59

I'll try to state the thought more simply. "God" is a name we assign to the force behind the original, unexplained creation. Presently that would be the force behind the origin of this amazing universe, light, space. Maybe we push that envelope further in the future, but the boundary always exists. In our understanding there always is a 'first'. We have only the vaguest idea in a cosmic sense how that first came to b…

> cuz "nothing" sure didn't make the universe. How do you know?

Can you point to science that empirically demonstrates something coming from absolutely nothing?

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#182

Post by flyingchipmann »

nassimsoftware wrote: post #176

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God i…

I agree the logic. To me conceptually god and the creator in cthulhu maybe the same

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#183

Post by beebmam »

nassimsoftware wrote: post #176

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God i…

What if there isn't? Isn't just the belief in a God going to affect the way you think and act?

We know for a fact that particles can come into existence spontaneously from a vacuum; it is happening literally all the time.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#184

Post by ssklash »

I feel that there is an often unasked question when it comes to discussions about the existence of god. So what? What if he does exist? Why does it automatically follow that we should worship him, pray to him, live our lives for him, etc? Why immediately assume he's good?

What if ants in an ant hill see the relatively god-like figure of a 6 year old come and stand over their hill? It's probably 50/50 that he's there to dump water on the hill and destroy it or he is there to simply observe, let alone give them eternal life.

I've yet to see a convincing explanation for the existence of suffering. Mostly a lot of handwaving about "mysterious ways" and "plans". We fail to hold god to the same standard we'd hold ourselves to if we could prevent childhood cancer or genocide with the snap of our fingers. You'd be a monster to withhold that power if you were a human being, but somehow god does it out of "love".

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#185

Post by glopes »

ssklash wrote: post #184

I feel that there is an often unasked question when it comes to discussions about the existence of god. So what? What if he does exist? Why does it automatically follow that we should worship him, pray to him, live our lives for him, etc? Why immediately assume he's good? What if ants in an ant hill see the relatively god-like figure of a 6 year old come and stand over their hill? It's probably 50/50 that he's there…

These questions are exactly why you should read Spinoza’s Ethics.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#186

Post by torstenvl »

satvikpendem wrote: post #133
unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #59

I'll try to state the thought more simply. "God" is a name we assign to the force behind the original, unexplained creation. Presently that would be the force behind the origin of this amazing universe, light, space. Maybe we push that envelope further in the future, but the boundary always exists. In our understanding there always is a 'first'. We have only the vaguest idea in a cosmic sense how that first came to b…

This is simply a God of the gaps argument [0]. Just because we don't (yet) know how the universe was created does not mean that we must attribute it to some deity. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

I don't think this is GotG.

GotG arguments rely on gaps in scientific knowledge as evidence of the existence of the numinous.

This argument isn't about gaps in scientific knowledge. It's about gaps in scientific knowability. The argument is Godelian in nature.

The set of natural laws is a logical axiomatic system. It cannot be both consistent and complete. Therefore, either the scientific method is fundamentally unreliable for determining the truth, or there are true propositions about reality that cannot be proven within the axiomatic system of the natural laws. In short, unless the natural sciences are inherently bunk, it's a logical necessity that there exists something outside their scope, literally super-natural.

It's an imperfect analogy but I always come back to the idea of CPU privilege rings. We run up against a hard limit of what is observable/provable - a privilege boundary, if you will. That suggests we are in Ring > 0, and therefore there is something in Ring 0.

What's in Ring 0? Nobody knows. Whatever it is, we call it God.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#187

Post by glopes »

garbagetime wrote: post #15
NikolaeVarius wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think about it, the universe is conscious, because our conscious minds are part of it Hell of a leap. I subscribe to the notion the consciousness is a illusion via chemical whatever and the universe doesn't give a damn anyway.

What does it mean for consciousness to be an illusion?

By definition, it simply means that consciousness is not what it appears to be. It doesn’t, however, imply that consciousness does not exist.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#188

Post by nxmnxm99 »

giveexamples wrote: post #177
nassimsoftware wrote: post #176

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God i…

I agree that there might be a god, but why would such a god that can transcends time and logic.. care about humans? Humans are just a type of animal, an advanced organism, in biological terms we are not too different from bacteria, trees and sheep. That there is a first element seems natural, however why should this first element to care about the 100010847238384392938474934th element?

I’ve never understood this argument. What else would god “care” about, if not the only truly sentient creature that we know of?

Trillions of light years of pointless rock with a few Apes in the middle who can contemplate God. Seems pretty damn special fo me.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#189

Post by 1e-9 »

nassimsoftware wrote: post #176

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God i…

> In math there is the concept of having a first element...

There is also the mathematical concept of not having a first element of a sequence, where each element has an infinite number of elements indexed before it.

You seem to be arguing that the existence of a mathematical concept implies that the universe must follow it. In this case, you have one concept that implies a first element and another that implies no first element. They can’t both be true.

Re: Spinoza’s God: Einstein believed in it, but what was it?

#190

Post by nxmnxm99 »

beebmam wrote: post #183
nassimsoftware wrote: post #176

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God i…

What if there isn't? Isn't just the belief in a God going to affect the way you think and act? We know for a fact that particles can come into existence spontaneously from a vacuum; it is happening literally all the time.

Where does the vacuum come from? What causes a particle to emerge from a vacuum?
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