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It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

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Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#201

Post by tremon »

overtomanu wrote: post #171
refenestrator wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spend that time figuring out how to change it to unit tests in your IDE, or making the deployment lighter weight. Work on the meta-problem that makes your problem easier. After all, you've got time if the baseline is low-productivity. And the lessons learned are portable.

Not everything can be unit tested. Figuring out what ide is doing and writing a plugin for what you actually want to do.. How to maintain plugin across ide updates...it's the start of rabbit hole and may not be worth it sometimes..

Break out of the IDE then -- run your unit tests from the command line. As an added bonus, it will be much easier to troubleshoot the headless CI builds too.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#202

Post by huachimingo »

AriaMinaei wrote: post #192

Alternative take is that education has been anti-maker/anti-doer and it has been so for a long time. The constructionist movement is trying to change that. To make making be the education. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructionism_(learning_theo...

The common question at school, even at Uni: "How this is useful, at the _practical_ level"

How the hell are you supposed to motivate them about calculus if its all so abstract (see limits)?

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#203

Post by stormking »

davesque wrote: post #127
Avicebron wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tired of people signaling themselves as "weird" kids, it wasn't that weird to like computers, there's this fetishization of being "weird", "aspergy", "autistic", that's so tired and sad. no it doesn't make you better or smarter, it's just normal, no no one is a superstar because they were that "hacker" kid, times change, money changes focus and boom, success, it's not smarts, it's timing. and for all the kids out…

Lol...well then. Consider that it's possible that the time in history I'm talking about really was much more different than you realize. I could be wrong, but I'm assuming you didn't come of age during that time (the early to late 90s). I'm talking about when only a handful of funny people had modems or even computers. There were still many households that lacked a computer of any kind. And yes, if you were into comp…

Not true where and when I grew up (germany, in the 90s). Playing around with computers wouldn't get you any points with the ladys but it wasn't considered "weird", either.

Around 1992, it was totally normal to ask for a C64 or Amiga 500 for Christmas, if one was interested in such a thing and by 1995/96, there were only a handful of people left at school who had no access at all to a personal computer at home. By 2000, basically everyone between the age of 16 and 30 had internet at home.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#204

Post by [deleted] »

dageshi wrote: post #193
kharak wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't care about tech and take no enjoyment out of programming. I've tried to force myself for years to do side projects and find something in here that is enjoyable. Nothing is. How much I wish I could simply alter my motivation, but no one is the master of his muse. I don't hate programming. They money is good. Everything else I could do, would come with a serious slash to my salary. And that's just so…

This is probably running into a different issue, which is most people have a finite amount of programming (or intense concentration work) in them per day. For me that's 3-4 hours, for most creative people that number is pretty similar. Beyond that you get vastly diminishing returns and worse trying to do a "side project" involves a massive context shift that is mentally exhausting in of itself. Once I accepted that a…

[deleted]

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#205

Post by mekkkkkk »

beebeepka wrote: post #181
bavila wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working at an animal shelter may well raise your status with potential partners. This sounds like an unhealthily cynical view to hold. I certainly hope it does not come as a surprise to hear that some people just genuinely do love animals. Not everything in life boils down to running laps on a hedonic treadmill.

Exactly. I was somewhat in agreement with that person until they dropped this sociopathic nonsense.

That was the first comment from that user in this thread, just so you know.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#206

Post by bsanr2 »

lazide wrote: post #173
bsanr2 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be interested to hear the perspective of the people left in your wake. The cost of engaging with a strong-willed "do-er" is what happens when someone, by the do-er's measure, fails to keep up (or, god forbid, gets in the way). At that point, the do-er's productive ability has to be weighed against their capacity (or track record) for coercion or abuse. Steve Jobs comes to mind. If you've personally received pushb…

I consistently got top ratings from everyone I worked with as a leader and manager, and the issues I mention have been rare - and generally from those I’ve not wanted to be around because I didn’t agree with their approach or didn’t like their ethics. If that answers your question. Some of It is from clearly great pain they have been in, in the past, that had nothing to do with me, but was funneled in my direction wh…

>If that answers your question.

It really doesn't, considering the proposed metric was "perspective of people left in your wake" and not "ratings from colleagues, as related by you." A hypothetical aimed less at considering what people think of you and more of what people think of themselves after having encountered you, it's a matter of who is being centered in such a meditation.

You sound like a great self-marketer. What I've learned is that great self-marketers are fun to be around and work with as long as the reality distortion field is up; however, the risk one takes is in someday finding oneself outside the field, which is a life-altering and frequently psyche-shattering experience. The do-er generally does not care, if they even notice at all; convinced of the virtuousness of their ethos, they're too busy "doing." (Though, to be frank, there is some schadenfreude-tinged consolation in that that often includes "doing" themselves into legal or ethical trouble, or a divorce.)

I'm sorry if that's harsh. I've seen careers destroyed and dreams deferred by people who speak like you speak. Maybe you're different.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#207

Post by lazide »

bsanr2 wrote: post #206
lazide wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consistently got top ratings from everyone I worked with as a leader and manager, and the issues I mention have been rare - and generally from those I’ve not wanted to be around because I didn’t agree with their approach or didn’t like their ethics. If that answers your question. Some of It is from clearly great pain they have been in, in the past, that had nothing to do with me, but was funneled in my direction wh…

>If that answers your question. It really doesn't, considering the proposed metric was "perspective of people left in your wake" and not "ratings from colleagues, as related by you." A hypothetical aimed less at considering what people think of you and more of what people think of themselves after having encountered you, it's a matter of who is being centered in such a meditation. You sound like a great self-marketer…

You’re welcome to talk to them if you run across them, somehow. I tend to be overly honest, and pretty much the opposite of self marketing.

The only reason I replied here was because I felt it important that folks know where Carmack might be coming from.

The only legal trouble I’ve ever been in, the other side filed to settle and dismiss (which I was ok with, despite having a strong claim for civil damages into the 6 figures on them), because once I pulled my records for the court it was clear they had committed at least one crime of felony perjury - hard to prove, but what I had certainly seemed to show they had met the bar - and likely 4-5 other identifiable crimes while doing this including potentially criminal conspiracy - for which evidence would be visible in discovery.

Never had a complaint at work filed against me, never even been questioned by the police or detained except for some speeding tickets a decade ago.

I have had to file criminal complaints against a few people over the years when they persisted in clearly criminal acts despite being confronted about it. I wish I hadn’t needed to, but I made sure to provide a comprehensive set of evidence to the investigators, and they all were seen through.

Also, with projects, I’ve always worked my ass off to make sure we’re persuing solid projects that aren’t pie in the sky BS, and if something isn’t working out, people are able to land well in other teams. I’ve never had to lay people off or fire someone because something blew up, even when it wasn’t my doing. I have been on the receiving end of it happening, which is part of why I care so much to not do that to others I suppose.

It has really not been easy to do so, but I put in the work, because it matters to me.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#208

Post by lazide »

dcx wrote: post #178
lazide wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to say frankly. Some of it is learned, some pre wired. When I was about 11, and at a friends house, his Dad came home in a rage and started beating him. I intervened, stood up to him (despite him being 2+ ft taller and about 120 lbs bigger than I was at the time and in a raging fury), and made him back down. I remember calculating the odds at the time he would snap and kill me vs back off at the time, and toeing…

Very interesting. I think I understand where you're coming from, and also why this is trait is not common. The values you place focus on are particularly well developed, and it's helpful to see how important they are to you. I tend to default to a goal orientation, with values mostly "implied in" through choices of goals at various levels. I'm going to think about how I might use some of these ideas in my life. Thank…

I’m glad it’s helpful to you. It has taken time to understand - and the single most valuable part, if anything, I’d recommend is spending the time to meditate and understand yourself and how you’re wired, so you can understand and better live in a way that aligns with your values.

The closer you get, the easier it gets, and the better the feedback loop works. It takes time, and never really ends.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#209

Post by lazide »

theshrike79 wrote: post #190
lazide wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there are people who are do-ers. Not everyone is wired the same. Personally I can’t NOT do things. Regardless of if I get paid, it works out, or I even get yelled at for doing it - I fix things, pull things apart and make them better, clean things up, learn, and solve problems regardless of the discipline. If I’m not doing those things, I feel terrible. If I do those things (and the more the merrier), I feel…

I'm in the same group as you. I'm completely unable to keep my stupid mouth shut if I see people doing stupid shit or being inefficient. This got me promoted at my last company, which was fun for a while, I could actually change the stupid processes and ways of working - but it wasn't my thing in the long run. Now I'm working in a smaller team as a normal coder and still can't keep my trap shut - but at least people…

When I was younger, I did that a lot. And being around people who are more experienced is a great place to be in general, as it helps to learn!

I learned over time a lot about structural incentives and the environmental and emotional reasons why people do things (including myself), and it’s helped me at least in figuring out how to make the right thing happen more often, instead of causing more friction by pointing out that clearly the right thing is not happening instead. And how to avoid places where their values and mine don’t align, and so I’d just end up constantly trying to swim against the current.

Not sure if it helps - it took time to learn (and prioritize) the mentoring and guiding skills and how to avoid the folks and situations who are real problems.

Re: It is easier to educate a Do-er than to motivate the educated

#210

Post by qazxcvbnmlp »

clockwork123512 wrote: post #158
unemphysbro wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how do you recover?

I had a similar experience. The following was helpful for my unique situation, over the course of a year and a half: 1. I consciously decided to stop processing the past and let go. Instead, I moved on to the opportunities I currently have. I adjusted social media to remove reminders of my past workplace (including muting old colleagues). The questionable professional networking benefits wasn't worth the toll to my m…

Appreciate you sharing this. Am In the midst of moving on from a harder time in life - it helps to hear from people who have been there before.
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