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Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

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Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#201
post #164

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

This. It's why it's so important for laptops to permit a physical slider to block the integrated camera. It is a low-cost, low tech way to verify that the camera is not picking up usable images. The real problem is that we don't have something analogous for microphones. The best we could do is some kind of humming device that you could turn on near the sensor that would drown out any noises it might otherwise pick up…

> It is a low-cost, low tech way to verify that the camera is not picking up usable images.

It is definitely not low cost.

In the hardware business, we count pennies. We count fractions of pennies with the costs of various components.

A shutter means at least one extra mechanical part, and a more complicated housing and increased assembly time at the factory.

You might look at a piece of plastic and think it is only a few pennies of plastic. But by the time you get it integrated into the product, and shipped out to consumers, it can add up to a dollar of cost. That really eats into the profits of low-margin hardware.

Only if enough consumers care about hardware shutters does it make business sense to include it. If most don't, and it is not a part of their buying decision making, then you're just throwing away money. Especially if it leads to increased post-sales tech support costs: ("My camera doesn't work! Is the shutter closed? Oh it is!").

Note that this is not an argument not to have hardware shutters. They are a good thing. But they come at a significant (to the final price) cost.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#202

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

To me it's unfathomable to have such a device around. I even feel uncomfortable with my neighbor having one (which I _hear him talking to). I assume it's like reading the side effects of medication and think they are other people's problems somehow. How do people trade core privacy for setting the alarm or getting the weather report by voice command. I don't respect them. Same with off the shelf IP cameras in one's b…

I cannot agree more. In my home as long as I live I refuse to live with devices like this. And yes, I am that guy who keeps laptops / phones in a Faraday box (a cool project I completed in quarantine) while not in use haha. My friends actually really like the novelty of putting their phone / devices into the box when they come over - even if they make fun of me for it.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#204

It's likely there are microphones in Echo that even an electronics expert can't "recognize" as a microphone. Any object that is flimsy and can 'vibrate' due to sound, can have it's position used to alter an electrical signal, and anything monitoring that signal can convert the signal easily back into sound. Even a non-data carrying wire with current can do this.

I don't know about that. Yeah, ceramic capacitors in particular exhibit strong piezoelectric effects, but you'd need some sort of silicon to amplify the signal. I think electronic experts should be able to discover any sketchiness like that through thorough inspection and reverse engineering.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#205
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't they have implemented mute in software? There would be little outrage if they had (users don't care about the difference) but spy agencies (e.g. NSO Group) would have a backdoor. The fact that they used a hardware switch means they did it the right way. By contrast my Logitech camera has a light to show when the camera is running - but the light can be disabled via their software which makes me uncomfortable…

When we discussed this - at long length - during the original Echo development program, we consistently came to the conclusion that it should be hardware, not software, to maintain customer trust.

I know you. :)

#doppler4lyfe

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#206
post #28

But there’s still a security flaw in this method. If somebody from Amazon will decide to record you, they just send a reboot command to Echo. After reboot mic’s state will be changed back to normal I.e. powered.

Jesus - does everyone on this site live in a bunker using only candle light? Tip: you're insignificant and nobody at Amazon (or any company, for that matter) cares enough to spy on you.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#207
post #35
post #28

But there’s still a security flaw in this method. If somebody from Amazon will decide to record you, they just send a reboot command to Echo. After reboot mic’s state will be changed back to normal I.e. powered.

From using an echo at home, the unmuted state is only during the bootup process during which there's no processing or recording of audio going on anyway. If it shutdown muted mine starts up muted, even if the power cord is removed.

> the unmuted state is only during the bootup process during which there's no processing or recording of audio going on anyway

Is there any reason to believe that there's no processing or recording going on?

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#208
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't they have implemented mute in software? There would be little outrage if they had (users don't care about the difference) but spy agencies (e.g. NSO Group) would have a backdoor. The fact that they used a hardware switch means they did it the right way. By contrast my Logitech camera has a light to show when the camera is running - but the light can be disabled via their software which makes me uncomfortable…

When we discussed this - at long length - during the original Echo development program, we consistently came to the conclusion that it should be hardware, not software, to maintain customer trust.

My question for you is why not advertise this loudly? Or, maybe you did and no one cared? Because presumably it's a bit more costly per unit to do it this way, and very few people are ever going to understand and care.

Not that I think you made the wrong choice, I think it's a good one, but I'm just curious how many consumers you thought would actually understand it, or how that information would be distributed

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on excluding certification costs if you’re going to respin the device anyway, but part, assembly, and NRE labor are real costs of this change.

Which should remind companies releasing similar products in the future that it's cheaper to design them with built-in privacy features rather than patch them as an afterthought.

You're absolutely right.

That said, I think companies also have to consider the saleability of privacy features. How many Echos would you, personally, buy if they had a mechanical switch? How many people do you think would make the same decision? How does this stack up against the change in failure rates from a physical switch?

Again, you're completely correct. It's cheaper to design in privacy features up front. I can see some wrinkles that make the question more subtle, though.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#210

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

> I don’t think they would throw that away to fool us all into believing a fake mute button - for what?

True, but what is the incentive for Amazon to behave given their dominant market position? Customers might not have viable alternatives.

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