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Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

electronupdate.blogspot.com

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Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#181

Post by cmiles74 »

verbify wrote: post #162
rubyfan wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

Couldn't they have implemented mute in software? There would be little outrage if they had (users don't care about the difference) but spy agencies (e.g. NSO Group) would have a backdoor. The fact that they used a hardware switch means they did it the right way. By contrast my Logitech camera has a light to show when the camera is running - but the light can be disabled via their software which makes me uncomfortable…

This is a good point, I had suspected that the mute function was, in fact, implemented in software.

That they went ahead and implemented in hardware is encouraging. Someone over there took the feature seriously enough to take it this far. I am sure it added cost over a software-only solution.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#182

Post by dunnevens »

StavrosK wrote: post #168
ballenf wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is one of the consumer's intent: are you buying a phone with a bunch of extra capabilities or a microphone hooked to a data center around the world? And that explicit decision is what is jarring to people who value privacy. Of course they both have microphones hooked to data centers, but the Alexas/Echos are almost worthless without the microphone enabled. Many people I know have turned off listenin…

> I have a HomePod that I have to manually press the touch button on top for it to listen What's the difference? You trust it not to listen without the button press, I trust it to not listen without the wake word. To think that the distinction is meaningful is wishful thinking.

It's kinda meaningful. Wake words can be sometimes triggered by accident. Or by things like that commercial from a few years ago. A physical button press avoids all that.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#183

Post by jessriedel »

Fethbita wrote: post #139
pansa2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sometimes write articles describing investigations similar to this one. Do you think this article’s structure is appropriate? Or would it be better to reduce the need for comments like this one by putting the conclusion much earlier in the piece? I understand not putting the conclusion in the title, but perhaps in the first paragraph, in the spirit of BLUF [0]? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLUF_(communication)

As far as I can see from the blog, it's a technical blog. I would expect its regular users to read to the end and it kind of makes sense to put the conclusion at the bottom.

Technical users are exactly the ones who are looking to get information, not an entertaining story.

There is a reason academia uses abstracts, and it's not because the attention spans of the readers are unusually short.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#184

Post by some_random »

stdbrouw wrote: post #71
systemvoltage wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to use a physical debounce switch, there are several steep challenges. You can imagine OP presenting to an audience of 14 people at Amazon Devices group with a slide titled "New BOM proposal" entailing 6 million devices x [$0.0273 (switch price at 100k qty) + $0.05 assembly cost] + $50k engineering NRE (650 engineering hours) + $35k tooling NRE + $22k FCC re-cert + 7k ESD cert + another $100k in various cert…

You'd make this change alongside others that would require recertification and retooling anyway, and presumably a lot of those engineers have a full-time contract so that's not an additional cost. Overall assembly cost may be higher or lower depending on those other changes. It really is just that $0.0273 for the switch, which compared to the very steep marketing and branding challenge of convincing privacy-minded fo…

>It really is just that $0.0273 for the switch, which compared to the very steep marketing and branding challenge of convincing privacy-minded folks that Amazon isn't evil, is nothing.

Looking at this thread, there is no amount of money nor action they could take that would convince people here to buy an echo, so honestly why bother?

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#185

Post by some_random »

appleflaxen wrote: post #98
chaboud wrote: post #15

Disclosure: I'm an Amazon Devices PE, but not on Alexa devices. Jeff (and others) have spoken publicly about this in the past, and this teardown is correct. The hardware is designed such that, if the privacy LED is on, the microphone is unpowered. In order to compromise that, one would need to physically alter/damage the hardware.

Your statement really isn't any different than saying "Amazon says the mute button is real". Which we already knew. The problem is that many people don't trust the good faith of the company you work for, and by extension they won't trust you either.

You very clearly are not the target audience for this device.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#186

Post by creeble »

KraftKacke wrote: post #163
randomsearch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

Yes, phones do have microphones too. The were a confidentiality risk even before becoming mobile. You also have piping running through your house, which could be tapped, you don't even need microphones, and the EM field emitted by your monitor can be read across the street. So why even care? Why should I encrypt anything, if I can't even prove not living in an all powerful simulation? Back on topic, it's not a phones…

>Do you honestly not see an obvious difference between a phone and an Amazon wired device intended to record and remotely analyze what's happening in the room?

I sure don't, from a security viewpoint. They are both cloud-connected microphones. Google is just as likely as Amazon to listen in surreptitiously. And my phone is 1000x more vulnerable to someone _other than_ Google listening in due to installable apps.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#187

Post by cmiles74 »

randomsearch wrote: post #134
KraftKacke wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's unfathomable to have such a device around. I even feel uncomfortable with my neighbor having one (which I _hear him talking to). I assume it's like reading the side effects of medication and think they are other people's problems somehow. How do people trade core privacy for setting the alarm or getting the weather report by voice command. I don't respect them. Same with off the shelf IP cameras in one's b…

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

In my opinion, the difference is the amount of social pressure that is bearing down. Deciding to avoid products like the Echo and it's not a big deal. My mother-in-law will roll her eyes when I remind her we don't want for Christmas but it's not a big deal.

I can't really get away without having a cell phone. The slope has been slippery on this one; when I purchased my first smart phone this wasn't a big concern (but maybe it should have been). It's been several years and it's a bigger sacrifice, in my opinion, to give up a smart phone. Even if I wanted to, my employer might buy one for me, for instance.

I do think the expectation today is that everyone have a smart phone.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#188

Post by xnyan »

KraftKacke wrote: post #163
randomsearch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

Yes, phones do have microphones too. The were a confidentiality risk even before becoming mobile. You also have piping running through your house, which could be tapped, you don't even need microphones, and the EM field emitted by your monitor can be read across the street. So why even care? Why should I encrypt anything, if I can't even prove not living in an all powerful simulation? Back on topic, it's not a phones…

>Do you honestly not see an obvious difference between a phone and an Amazon wired device intended to record and remotely analyze what's happening in the room?

Do you honestly not see that there's no fundamental difference between the two? A CPU, ram, storage, wireless modems, microphones and a battery all running under software we don't control.

As far as intent, it's not possible to be sure about intent, you have to judge based on the information we have which is the features and capabilities of the device.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#189

Post by _ea1k »

verbify wrote: post #162
rubyfan wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

Couldn't they have implemented mute in software? There would be little outrage if they had (users don't care about the difference) but spy agencies (e.g. NSO Group) would have a backdoor. The fact that they used a hardware switch means they did it the right way. By contrast my Logitech camera has a light to show when the camera is running - but the light can be disabled via their software which makes me uncomfortable…

They could have, but I believe in the past they have claimed it to be hardware.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#190

Post by sib »

verbify wrote: post #162
rubyfan wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

Couldn't they have implemented mute in software? There would be little outrage if they had (users don't care about the difference) but spy agencies (e.g. NSO Group) would have a backdoor. The fact that they used a hardware switch means they did it the right way. By contrast my Logitech camera has a light to show when the camera is running - but the light can be disabled via their software which makes me uncomfortable…

When we discussed this - at long length - during the original Echo development program, we consistently came to the conclusion that it should be hardware, not software, to maintain customer trust.
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