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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#201

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

cma wrote: post #182
swebs wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Actions speak louder than words and Epic's anti-Linux actions with their store are extremely telling that their rhetoric about supporting open platforms is purely self-serving.

Valve has had a lot more Linux support, but it seems like they just want Steam to be "Google Play Services" for desktop Linux. GPL software can't even communicate with friends on Steam, isolating the open source community and ultimately turning their devs, if they want to be part of Steam's extensive gaming social network, into serfs for the store.

Huh? In what way is Steam on Linux in any way similar to Google Play Services on Android?

Steam on Linux is mostly compatibility hacks so people can play the games they bought. Some games have decent Linux support, but the real value I see in Steam on Linux is all the proton/wine magic/hacks to make games work relatively well without any changes, and frankly it's great.

The rate at which Wine/Proton et al., and Linux gaming in general, has improved in the last few years is staggering.

> GPL software can't even communicate with friends on Steam, isolating the open source community and ultimately turning their devs, if they want to be part of Steam's extensive gaming social network, into serfs for the store.

I have no idea what you mean by this, but I also don't see what the GPL has to do with it. You can easily write GPL software that you sell on Steam which uses all of Valve's features.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#202

Post by wcarey »

wayneftw wrote: post #191
wcarey wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way, though, that you can suggest I work somewhere else, I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform, so that doesn't seem to advance the argument very much? Plenty of folks make a living on the web or by selling Windows or Linux software. Having choice about some things is better than not having one, all around. But some people choose (!) to delegate their choosing to others in certa…

> I can suggest that you run your app business on another platform... Did you miss the part where I said that 50% of my customers use an iPhone? To be clear: 50% of the general population in the United States uses an iPhone. 90% of the youth market uses an iPhone. That doesn't leave much of a choice for developers at all. You simply cannot have a successful app business in the US without being on Apple's app store. M…

For some definition of "app business", sure. But there are plenty of companies making plenty of money in software without touching any app store. To be sure, Apple's popularity puts them in a really good negotiating position with respect to developers who want to sell certain kinds of software.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#203

Post by toyg »

pjmlp wrote: post #192
toyg wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users And who do we have to thank for that turn? Apple's culture that "we know better" is a good part of that problem. Developers want to be Apple , and Apple is pretty abusive towards their users. They take the occasional pro-user stance where it suits them, but overall it's pretty clear that the only institutional interest for Apple is Apple's ow…

Plenty of developers love Apple ways, since the Mac classic. And it is hardly any different from any other platform. Classical PCs are the exception here due to IBM's failure to secure their golden eggs, had they succeed and PCs would have been just as like. It is no surprise that with the rise of laptop and tablets, the classical desktop PC is an species facing extinction, with pizza boxes for server room being the…

I shiver to think what a IBM success "to secure their golden eggs" in the way Apple does today, would have meant for the world at large. P2P or the browser would have never been invented, you wouldn't have been allowed to install anything without IBM approving... brrr

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#204

Post by cma »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #201
cma wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve has had a lot more Linux support, but it seems like they just want Steam to be "Google Play Services" for desktop Linux. GPL software can't even communicate with friends on Steam, isolating the open source community and ultimately turning their devs, if they want to be part of Steam's extensive gaming social network, into serfs for the store.

Huh? In what way is Steam on Linux in any way similar to Google Play Services on Android? Steam on Linux is mostly compatibility hacks so people can play the games they bought. Some games have decent Linux support, but the real value I see in Steam on Linux is all the proton/wine magic/hacks to make games work relatively well without any changes, and frankly it's great. The rate at which Wine/Proton et al., and Linux…

> In what way is Steam on Linux in any way similar to Google Play Services on Android?

Steamworks.

> I have no idea what you mean by this, but I also don't see what the GPL has to do with it. You can easily write GPL software that you sell on Steam which uses all of Valve's features.

Steamworks is needed for that and isn't GPL compatible. You can sell GPL software on Steam, but can't use many features and are isolated from most social/friend stuff.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/sdk/uploading/distributin...

> Which Open Source licenses are compatible with the Steamworks SDK? In general, permissive licenses that do not put any requirements on you to redistribute your modifications under an open source license work fine.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#205

Post by wcarey »

wayneftw wrote: post #193
wcarey wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you support compelling developers who have a monopoly on a particular app to support all available app stores? It seems like a developer who held a monopoly in a particular app would be the in the same position Apple is in with the app store writ large? For example, if the only way to fill out my employer's timecard is via an iOS app, should they be compelled to offer the app in all the available app stores?

If that particular app was essential to modern day life for a huge portion of the general population then yes, absolutely.

What it it's essential to the life of a relatively small group of users? It seems like the rights of smaller groups like that are the ones that most need collectively bargained, as they'll be in a relatively poor position to negotiate with the organization compelling them to use the app?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#206

Post by wayneftw »

pjmlp wrote: post #196
c048 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many stores are allowed on Apple's ecosystem?

Don't like Apple, buy Android, Jolla, Purism, KaiOS, whatever. And in the process get a law book.

> And in the process get a law book.

You're the one who thinks that you need a world-wide monopoly for it to matter to courts in the US.

> Don't like Apple, buy Android, Jolla, Purism, KaiOS, whatever.

That's advice for a user, not a developer. As a developer, I'm forced to go where my customers are and in the US 50% of the users have an iPhone.

If only 10% of the users in the US used an iPhone, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#207

Post by withinboredom »

ericmay wrote: post #80
badsectoracula wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not see a nightmare, that is the thing - why do you see one? What you describe is possible with multiple app stores and allowing 3rd party apps - you just do not use those other stores and apps. Nobody is forcing you to use a 3rd party app store, but Apple is forcing everyone to go through their store. You can keep your tightly controlled experience by not using anything else than Apple - but that doesn't mean e…

Nobody is forcing you to use an iPhone either. There are plenty of options with different trade offs. Allowing 3rd-party app stores has predictable negative externalities (privacy, security, etc.). Which is why I and others are not interested in that development. Apple is able to make developers engage in less shitty business practices precisely because they can control the distribution of software through the App St…

> You don’t buy an iPhone expecting to install whatever you want.

I specifically bought an iPhone to facetime my family from another country. I'd love to be able to have my apps from my old android. Or, use facetime from an android...

But yeah, I'd love to install whatever I want and that's what I'd expect instead of having to buy everything twice when I switched OSes.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#208

Post by derwiki »

Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote: post #154
ericmay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you just look at the PC ecosystem and you can see the nightmare. Like others,I prefer Apple to have a tightly controlled App Store and believe that the benefits far outweigh the ability to install software from a 3rd party App Store. For example, Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stor…

How's this not possible? You can _choose_ which appstore to use, if there are multiple, and stick to the original Apple one and preserve what you currently have. For apps not released on the Apple Store, you can choose not to use them, exactly like you are asking others to do by not allowing to have multiple appstores.

I don’t think they said it wasn’t possible. I think the point was that Apple/iPhone users don’t care. Maybe folks who would want an iPhone if they could do what you’re proposing—but those aren’t the folks currently giving Apple any money.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#209

Post by ctvo »

pjmlp wrote: post #199
wayneftw wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support any gang that wants to give developers and users more freedom of choice. What do you support?

I support that anti-Apple folks should get Android, Jolla, Purism,... Apparently voting with the wallet means buying status and then complaining about what one has bought.

I support that anti-Microsoft folks in the 90s should use Linux, Macintosh or an abacus. Plenty of choices. Vote with your wallet.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#210

Post by wayneftw »

pjmlp wrote: post #199
wayneftw wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support any gang that wants to give developers and users more freedom of choice. What do you support?

I support that anti-Apple folks should get Android, Jolla, Purism,... Apparently voting with the wallet means buying status and then complaining about what one has bought.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Why are you giving advice for users in a thread about developers rights?

90% of the youth market uses an iPhone and that's the same market Epic is in. Outside of youths, 50% of the US population uses an iPhone.

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