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Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

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Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#201
post #29

I wonder if this is related to the long commutes Americans have gotten used to. I'm not in the US, and while I would say I definitely appreciate the flexibility of being able to work from home (or from "not the office") every now and then, and I do like the present drop in meetings, I cannot fathom how people stay sane without a variety of other people around. My productivity has definitely dropped, and it feels like…

My work is all meetings all the time, now. I’m on the phone most of the day. Little things that used to take 20 minutes now take an hour. I used to enjoy working from home a couple days a week because I got some peace and quiet and knew I could catch back up with people when I returned to the office. I went from loving to hating my job in the last three weeks. I am also constantly distracted by having the kids around…

The problem is 100% with the way software is developed these days. Every company trains their staff to be as unproductive as possible with open plan offices, all the productivity is coming from quantity over quality, with every hire and every hour of training reflecting that.

Working from home is great if you have autonomy and can build a chunk of software with minimal oversight. But if your dev process revolves solely around collaboration in an open plan office then it's not going to translate well to WFH at all. You simply can't have 3 non-tech people for every dev that all need to be kept in the loop and are continuously making decisions when you're not physically there to keep the conversation grounded. Every big business job I've had has tons of these people that go out of their way to keep everything from the devs until the very last moment because "they're too busy" (with the last huge chunk of pointless work their decisions generated that could have been prevented with a 20 second conversation instead of 18 hours of bikeshedding meetings).

And devs are as guilty of this as everyone else. Right now things like code reviews and unit tests are the shit hot trend. "Agile" and "scrum" and whatever else are also red hot. The combination of both means the "default" way to build software is to break everything down into chunks that take hours, and run all the trendy processes on that time scale. If you're breaking every 45 minutes to do a code review, you're going to lose a huge part of the benefit of WFH, whereas in a hotdesking office environment you probably weren't going to build much momentum anyway so it's a much smaller sacrifice. The reason people are losing so much productivity is because before they probably palmed those tasks off to their in-office days so the 1 or 2 WFH days a week were highly productive (at least I know mine were). With 5 WFH days a week that's not an option.

The way to run a dev team remote is to give people more autonomy and bigger chunks of work, and tear down communication channels. Start measuring in weeks or months, let the engineers make the decisions and use their judgement on when to loop someone into a conversation. Teams need to be smaller, with 2/3rds devs and roles like product owner and BA providing support, instead of running the show. These roles need to be domain experts with a thorough understanding of what the business requires and an understanding of how software can meet that need. They should be a fountain of knowledge for the devs to access at their own pace, not just mindless machines that shit out JIRA cards with too much boilerplate. And devs need to take on more responsibility, broaden their non-technical skillset, and focus their tech capabilities more on the fundamentals (quality code that produces for the business), and less on setting up elaborate structures that require constant upkeep and communication within the team (huge test suites, elaborate cross-project CI/CD setups, ridiculous webpack configs, constant code reviews, endless NPM dependencies and convoluted patterns that restrict creativity and increase mental load).

If you want to be productive from home, you need to create an environment where you can just sit down for a few hours, get in the rythym, and produce quality software. If I think of any great software from the past, or the engineers that produced it, none of them were doing it in anything that looked remotely like the dev environments we have today. Shit, most of them did it from home, or from offices that were so cozy and personal they may as well have been home.

I think we've spent the last decade trying to distill software development down into some finely tuned machine that any old cog can drive, and counterintuitively, the further it goes the shittier the software becomes. When I flip through older books like Peopleware, it makes me cringe at how many of the lessons in there still aren't followed, and the amount of problems that were pointed out in the 80s and 90s that aren't only unresolved today, but have seen negative progress.

I see covid-19 as a chance to try something different. Most companies are going to continue to make the same mistakes, and mass WFH will never see adoption as long as they do. So you can pretty much put that dream to rest. But I'm going to be working from home a lot in the future, and try doing things another way for a change.

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that you are just generalizing something that can't be easily generalized. I'm not happy with what's happening in the world - as I hope most aren't - but the work from home situation isn't a problem for me. I'm loving it. I have an older kid and both him and my wife, who's a stay-at-home mom, are doing a great job maintaining a quiet environment in the house. One thing that makes a huge difference is having a…

I'll chime in there. Same experience. I've got a nice office upstairs away from everyone. I do two things every single day, all day, in that room by myself, and it feels amazing. I do my work for a few hours, and then I hack on a personal project the rest of the day. Then before bed I catch up with my wife for a couple hours and we watch something. I'm in heaven. Introvert heaven. Communal offices drain my life.

> I do my work for a few hours, and then I hack on a personal project the rest of the day.

That does sound like introvert heaven. Your company doesn't hold you accountable to your hours? If I could put in a solid 4 hours of work I would get just as much done as I do in 8, and then have extra time for myself and not the mental anguish of trying and failing to focus that whole time.

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My work is all meetings all the time, now. I’m on the phone most of the day. Little things that used to take 20 minutes now take an hour. I used to enjoy working from home a couple days a week because I got some peace and quiet and knew I could catch back up with people when I returned to the office. I went from loving to hating my job in the last three weeks. I am also constantly distracted by having the kids around…

Work from home does work better when you have daycare. The isolation of wfh gave me a lot of anxiety (other life problems factored in as well). I think a good balance is 1-2 days/wfh. Wfh degrades into work from coffeeshop. If your meetings aren't productive there's definitely a problem in your org. I suspect meetings are being driven by those without a clear goal and intend to fill a whole hour talking. Just a hunch…

"Long meetings are a symptom of a lack of planning imho."

Yes and a sympton of mgmnt/people(s) with too much time on their hands...and excess time manifests differently for some under WFH. They can't command and control as easily under WFH so what do?

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#204

I've worked from home since 2001, except for a brief 2 year stint at Google. I think I'm far more productive at home because I have: - An office, with a door I can close This was going to be a big list, but I actually think that just about sums it up. The cube environment at Google was utterly intolerable, and made it hard to concentrate. It didn't help that the guys in another group next to us had a game where they…

What I wouldn't give for a cube. To my left and right in our open office are engineers who are normally quiet. The row in front of are all business strategy people. They never stop talking. They're on the phone, they're having meetings, they're casually chatting. There's nothing at all to block the sound or the sight of them grouping up in 2s and 6s at each others desk. One even has a rare sight in the office, a desk…

The "cube" I had was a mega-cube with 6 people. Our group was spread among 2 adjacent mega cubes, so the divider was eventually removed, making a 12-person cube.

I had an end spot, and I had a portable whiteboard shoved between me and my neighbor to separate us, and I built a wall of empty Hint bottles around my desk to isolate me from the aisle. That removed a lot of visual distractions, but it was still quite noisy.

Speaking of this, one guy in a building across the street basically built himself a hut out of cardboard boxes glued together. It was amazing.

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#205
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES. Early morning time is the most productive time for many people. It's all downhill after lunch. The problem is, many companies are more hip about WFH than hour shifting. It's not a thing. If you start coming into work early to get more done, you will get the looks if you don't stay in the office until 6:00PM, just like everyone. That is not sustainable. However, if you are a European or Indian offshore, then hour…

> YES. Early morning time is the most productive time for many people. It's all downhill after lunch. For me and many others it's right the other way around. The single way you can kill my productivity is to force me to get up earlier than 8. Now with Corona lockdowns, I can get up at 9 (!) and actually feel rested!

Yes, and if we work the same amount of hours, but I leave at 4PM, you will be perceived as doing more work.

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a choice to work a non-remote job though. My partner could work, but it wouldn't be remote, so she's a stay at home parent while I work remote, enabling us to live somewhere rural (which also happens to be cheaper; one income easily supports a family of four). Both people in a relationship could work remote jobs to enable geospatial freedom, also a choice! When someone says that working remote isn't a solution t…

That's something we've been looking at recently, actually -- moving somewhere cheaper, but the problem we've found is that there just really aren't any jobs that she's interested in in the area we've been looking at (even outside of her current field, which she wants to leave anyway) -- we're looking at one spot in particular because of my mountain biking hobby and because I've lived there and have a lot of family th…

What spot are you looking at? Asking as a mountain biker.

Itching to get out on a road trip once it’s possible.

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#207
post #29

I wonder if this is related to the long commutes Americans have gotten used to. I'm not in the US, and while I would say I definitely appreciate the flexibility of being able to work from home (or from "not the office") every now and then, and I do like the present drop in meetings, I cannot fathom how people stay sane without a variety of other people around. My productivity has definitely dropped, and it feels like…

You have a higher need for social stimulation than some people.

My productivity has gone up measurably. In normal times, I get plenty of social stimulation outside work so I don't need any from work.

While I think many organizations will retain remote work for some percentage of their workforce when the crisis is over I don't think we're about to have a revolution. The generations in charge came of age with face-to-face being the way people got things done. They aren't going to change.

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#208
post #36
post #19

No wonder given that the daily commute is both mentally and physically taxing for most. I've been working remotely since 2015 and have already decided to settle in a perhaps less attractive, but definitely cheaper neighbourhood so that I could have some office space in the house. In the long run it's probably going to cost as much as the sum total of fuel and vehicles used over the years, but the main benefit is not…

Make sure you account for the value of time saved. Time is precious and there's never enough, if I can find a way to add 40 more minutes to my day I'm going to value that immensely.

In my case, the current situation adds 10 hours to my personal time. Thinking hard about moving to a remote-only position next. Sadly, moving closer to the workplace is out of the question because no force on earth will bring me to live in a densely built up city ever again; I reject urbanization for myself. I'd rather enjoy a green, quiet countryside.

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#209

I was working from home before the virus. The difference for me now is that my other colleagues work from home too. The quality of our meetings has improved, and I feel that I'm on a more even playing field now (in term of evaluation for instance). It's great. I'm also collaborating more closely with some colleagues with whom I had little interaction before. That being said, working from home is not for everyone. Not…

> or are unable to maintain good work/life balance

Happens to me in an absurdly trivial way: pre-antiviral-WFH I was taking my main meal of the day as lunch at the office, now it's dinner at home. After lunch it was easy for office life (and caffeine) to get me back to speed. But evening side projects don't stand a chance against the digestion passivity of a full dinner. A full lunch at home isn't possible for me because at that time of the day I'm just not hungry enough unless the food is prepared for me.

Re: Half of American workers would rather work from home forever: poll

#210
post #29

I wonder if this is related to the long commutes Americans have gotten used to. I'm not in the US, and while I would say I definitely appreciate the flexibility of being able to work from home (or from "not the office") every now and then, and I do like the present drop in meetings, I cannot fathom how people stay sane without a variety of other people around. My productivity has definitely dropped, and it feels like…

My work is all meetings all the time, now. I’m on the phone most of the day. Little things that used to take 20 minutes now take an hour. I used to enjoy working from home a couple days a week because I got some peace and quiet and knew I could catch back up with people when I returned to the office. I went from loving to hating my job in the last three weeks. I am also constantly distracted by having the kids around…

Conversely for me, meetings have reduced because more people are using slack and email to communicate more frequently, and the quality of their communications has gone up. While i know that sounds like hell for some people, it’s where I thrive since I’ve always worked at multi site companies before, and it was the only effective way to scale communication.

So I’ve gone from having meetings all day, every day, to having half that amount.

When we do have meetings, I’m also able to attend without having to do as many context switches as before. I’m not having to leave my desk, put down my work and move somewhere else. I can work through the meeting without distracting anyone else.

I’d say my productivity is at least 2-3x what it was before this.

At the same time, I’ll also fully admit that this is entirely subjective to myself and everyone has different ways of working. I thrive with lots of simultaneous communication and parallel tasks, so having everyone talking in slack and email and meetings at once is my ideal situation because the information now actively makes it way to me, and my time spent having to wrangle things is very much reduced.

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