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Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

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Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#201

Post by andrewg »

briandear wrote: post #158
throw0101a wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thunderstorm: it can use weather broadcast over ADS-In UAT. Mentioned in the AVweb report. Closure: certainly a problem. Mountain: can use worldwide topographic information in its database to route around. See AVweb Crosswind: mentions getting local weather. Engine: Autland cannot help. But on the Cirrus you'd pull the CAPS cord and float down.

Except ADS-B NEXRAD weather is generally 15-20 minutes behind the actual conditions. Using on board weather radar is much better .. many G3000 airplanes are using onboard weather radar rather than the outdated info from ADS-B.

M600 has onboard radar (it's the pod on the right wing).

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#202

Post by nroets »

rexaliquid wrote: post #163
zarkov99 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be a lot simpler to have a remote pilot access the controls? Why go through all this ?

Establishing, maintaining, and handling the inevitable connection issues of the data connection necessary to remote pilot an aircraft is a lot more work than integrating a "best route" algorithm with existing autopilot features, automated radio communication, and calming cockpit UI.

Until StarLink has proper coverage.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#203

Post by andrewg »

usrusr wrote: post #67
ceejayoz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which would suggest that if you need to be vectored to a runway, the aircraft can negotiate that with ATC automatically (and perhaps ATC can advise which is the most appropriate diversion?) I strongly suspect it just announces itself. "N123FOO DECLARING EMERGENCY; PILOT INCAPACITATED, AUTOLAND ENGAGED; CLEAR RUNWAY 21L; 12 MILES OUT" sort of stuff.

Still makes me wonder: do you really need/want all that automation or would it make more sense to prepare for putting a remote pilot into the loop? Not for virtually holding the stick, but for looking at telemetry, communicating and doing all the high level decisions.

There are certainly incredible situations with happy endings where ATC has made suggestions or gotten someone with experience in a type on the radio.

But I could imagine a company contemplating building the remote-pilot-for-emergencies service might be scared off by potential liability. Families of pilots killed in GA accidents routinely sue aircraft and engine manufacturers even when the FAA determines the cause to be pilot error.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#204

Post by serf »

AWildC182 wrote: post #171
Daviey wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cruise missiles have had similar technology for a long time. I try to make my landings a little less eventful.

A "good" landing is one which people can walk away from and a "great" landing is one where you can use the cruise missile again so by definition, a cruise missile can complete neither a "good" nor a "great" landing by design.

there are plenty of loitering munitions that have great landings routinely.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#205

Post by whyaduck »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #159
briandear wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my friends is a Cirrus platinum instructor, including being type rated for the Vision Jet and even he had a CAPS pull as his first choice versus landing off airport. They call it dead sticking for a reason.

Was it his plane or a company plane? There's a big difference between taking on a little extra risk for your money vs someone else's money.

What's "a little extra risk"? A 5% chance you'll die? 1%? 0.1%? Compared to what? Those are actually very large risks when the cost is your life. When the survival rate of using CAPS is an order of magnitude (or more) safer? Use the chute. Not to mention how bad a decision it would be to dead stick if there are passengers on board.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#206

Post by rubicon33 »

rubicon33 wrote: post #138
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

It's just shortest path traversal no? Represent each airport as a node in a graph with all relevant data (distance, weather, etc.) ... Traverse the graph and find the shortest path. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm Easier said than done I'm sure ;)

Confused as to why this is being downvoted. If there's a better way to implement it, by all means, lets discuss that! It's an interesting tech challenge... why just downvote?

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#207

Post by denkmoon »

nroets wrote: post #202
rexaliquid wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Establishing, maintaining, and handling the inevitable connection issues of the data connection necessary to remote pilot an aircraft is a lot more work than integrating a "best route" algorithm with existing autopilot features, automated radio communication, and calming cockpit UI.

Until StarLink has proper coverage.

Even then, would you really want to rely on that?

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#208

Post by tonyarkles »

rubicon33 wrote: post #206
rubicon33 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just shortest path traversal no? Represent each airport as a node in a graph with all relevant data (distance, weather, etc.) ... Traverse the graph and find the shortest path. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm Easier said than done I'm sure ;)

Confused as to why this is being downvoted. If there's a better way to implement it, by all means, lets discuss that! It's an interesting tech challenge... why just downvote?

I agree with you!

The word "just" in their post may be prickly. Also, it's not really a graph search as stated, just a "choose the airport with the lowest weight". That, in theory, chooses the airport to land at, but not... the rest of it.

Yes, choosing a route would be essentially a graph search, with weather at intermediate nodes adding to edge weights, etc, but even after you've computed a target path, you're going to be continually refining that path (e.g. the thunderstorm moves in a way you didn't predict). And... flying the aircraft itself.

Autopilot in straight & level flight isn't too big of a deal. Autopilot tracking a path is doable (including ascent/decent). Auto-throttle is common on larger airliners but not in GA aircraft. Automatically configuring landing gear and flaps, as appropriate for weather conditions, is (afaik) not done automatically even in commercial airliners. And doing all of this, reliably, with the assumption that the pilot is incapacitated... that's friggin' cool!

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#209

Post by tialaramex »

korethr wrote: post #184
joshvm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> During all phases of flight it communicates with passengers and appropriate air traffic control facilities regarding the new flight plan route and estimated time until landing. Which would suggest that if you need to be vectored to a runway, the aircraft can negotiate that with ATC automatically (and perhaps ATC can advise which is the most appropriate diversion?) This in the situation where the pilot is incapacita…

I did some searching and found some demo videos. In this video, part of the announcement is audible: https://youtu.be/IcVuubU4BTU?t=90 Starting at 1:30, "NOVEMBER SIX HOTEL LIMA, POSSIBLE PILOT INCAPACITATION, SIXTEEN MILES WEST OF KILO CHARLIE LIMA--" at this point the voiceover talks over the announcement, and I have trouble making it out, but I'm pretty sure I hear a "...LANDING ON RUNWAY..." in there as well. For…

There's a frequency for uncontrolled fields the Common Traffic Advisory Frequency. You join the frequency and ordinarily it's silent OR you can hear other pilots who are already in the same area or on the ground, co-ordinating. You listen and build a mental image of anything happening, then as you get closer, even if nobody else spoke yet, you announce your intentions.

The accident plane will be constantly reminding people of its status on this frequency when there isn't a tower. Other pilots will be talking in response to each other but this system can't understand what they're saying. So it will just explain periodically what's going on. Something like:

"Springfield Traffic, November Six Zero Hotel Lima with Emergency Possible Pilot Incapacitation. Final Runway One Six. Full Stop. Runway Will Close After Emergency."

I can definitely imagine, especially when this technology is new, other pilots trying to ask questions

"Zero Hotel Lima, did you say runway will close? I was planning to land there after you. Do you know when it will re-open?"

The system can't understand their question and won't answer, but their training should teach them De Niro's line from Ronin. "When there is any doubt, there is no doubt". Something is wrong, they should divert and leave the emergency plane to do its thing.

The vast majority of reasonable places to land something small like these $2-3M planes will not have a tower at all, and for some of the rest the tower is only part time, but your emergency may not be, so it is usually going to be talking on CTAF and other pilots will just have to make new plans to work around the emergency.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#210

Post by briandear »

korethr wrote: post #184
joshvm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> During all phases of flight it communicates with passengers and appropriate air traffic control facilities regarding the new flight plan route and estimated time until landing. Which would suggest that if you need to be vectored to a runway, the aircraft can negotiate that with ATC automatically (and perhaps ATC can advise which is the most appropriate diversion?) This in the situation where the pilot is incapacita…

I did some searching and found some demo videos. In this video, part of the announcement is audible: https://youtu.be/IcVuubU4BTU?t=90 Starting at 1:30, "NOVEMBER SIX HOTEL LIMA, POSSIBLE PILOT INCAPACITATION, SIXTEEN MILES WEST OF KILO CHARLIE LIMA--" at this point the voiceover talks over the announcement, and I have trouble making it out, but I'm pretty sure I hear a "...LANDING ON RUNWAY..." in there as well. For…

Plenty of untowered fields with GPS approaches. Hayward, Palo Alto and Livermore are three that have closed towers at night — to be fair though, the GPS approach at Palo is prohibited at night, but Hayward’s is definitely available. Even untowered Sedona has an RNAV approach.
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