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Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

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Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#161

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

saganus wrote: post #140
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

What kind tech stack/development processes do you think are needed for something like this? At a very naive level, for example: typed language vs dynamic; formal verification of the code or not (or to what extent); what kind of QA? (can't even imagine how to test this "in production" given the amount of edge cases like the ones you describe; hw and sw redundancy; to name a few. I have zero experience with airplane so…

I'd imagine that it begins well before that with Requirements Management: probably more important than any other single thing since that drives the entire development process.

Anyway, I'm sure there used to be a blog for the Dreamliner test team, but I can't find it now, so here's this instead: https://www.wired.com/2010/03/a-look-inside-the-brains-of-bo...

And specifically for code, look here: https://ldra.com/aerospace-defence/standards/misra-cc/

and (JSF, not commercial) https://www.f35.com/about/life-cycle/software

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#162

Post by [deleted] »

FabHK wrote: post #134
tialaramex wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sets 7700 and broadcasts what's happening, incapacitated pilot is an emergency so that's what it will tell everybody. If there's a controller on frequency it's up to that controller what to do about it, but there's no use arguing with a machine and the pilot is incapacitated, so my expectation is that a controller will keep other traffic out of the way, and if the autoland has picked somewhere with a local tower t…

> they'd call that tower and give it heads up it has got an incoming emergency No need: > [Autoland] would update and broadcast that message every 30 seconds—listening to make sure that it didn’t transmit over any other radio calls. Once near the Class D airspace of the tower, it would have changed one of the radios to the tower frequency and kept the other on the emergency frequency. Then, once landed, it will brake…

[deleted]

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#163

Post by rexaliquid »

zarkov99 wrote: post #160
nabla9 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's to be used only in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. Because it's an emergency feature engaged by a passenger or automatically, it probably can't manage all complex situations. It may be just good weather emergency landing. Check fuel and wind, steer to nearest emergency airport and land. Best effort is better than no effort and dying. > There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and th…

Would it be a lot simpler to have a remote pilot access the controls? Why go through all this ?

Establishing, maintaining, and handling the inevitable connection issues of the data connection necessary to remote pilot an aircraft is a lot more work than integrating a "best route" algorithm with existing autopilot features, automated radio communication, and calming cockpit UI.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#164

Post by kube-system »

mixedCase wrote: post #154
AWildC182 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gyro powered steam gauges are all but gone from aviation. The GA fleet is even shedding them at a promising rate. MEMS based independent systems with backup power are solid state and far more reliable than a janky vacuum pump driven by the engine running a couple clockwork instruments.

Sorry to be a pedant but since it took me a second to get it at first: "all but gone" implies that they're definitely still here, I think something like "almost gone" or "almost out of use" would be the right phrasing.

'all but' is an idiomatic synonym for 'almost'.

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/all+but

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#165

Post by phissk »

nabla9 wrote: post #31
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

It's to be used only in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. Because it's an emergency feature engaged by a passenger or automatically, it probably can't manage all complex situations. It may be just good weather emergency landing. Check fuel and wind, steer to nearest emergency airport and land. Best effort is better than no effort and dying. > There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and th…

> Cruise missiles have had similar technology for a long time.

Cruise missiles aren't trying to survive the landing.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#166

Post by bdamm »

appstorelottery wrote: post #145
lisper wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://www.piper.com/model/m600sls/ "The routing algorithm determines a path to the Final Approach Fix (FAF) of the chosen published approach that avoids terrain, obstacles, and significant weather." That handles all of your contingencies except an engine failure. If you have an engine failure and a pilot who can't dead-stick a landing you're probably screwed. But you're still no worse off in that case than you…

I think this a case for better GA trining. Expecting engine failure on takeoff, building the counterintuitive pitch-down reflex to avoid stall, and so on. Knowing your minimum maneuverable speed (and marking it on your air speed indicator). Expecting something to go wrong is the key mindset. A GA death happens roughly once a week for the reasons you outline. Emergency situations are not time to learn new skills, you…

That's true, but, we also accept a certain risk as GA pilots being non-commercial. The risk we accept is translated into a larger GA industry that makes flying as a hobby "affordable" to mere mortals (read: wealthy non-millonaires and not career pilots.)

We can require more training for GA, but the training burden is already pretty high, and the GA industry is still shrinking last time I checked. Boosting safety requirements in the form of additional training for GA may save a few lives, but also those gains could be simply because there will be fewer hobby pilots.

The fact is that GA planes falling out of the sky just doesn't kill very many people. It obviously feels terrible to the families involved in a crash, but relative to automotive deaths, lung cancer, murders, etc, it is a tiny tiny blip in the numbers. Obviously being a GA pilot boosts your chance of dying in a small airplane crash, in the same way that learning to ride a motorcycle boosts your chance of dying in a motorcycle crash. The alternative of killing off recreational flying, is worse.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#167

Post by Denvercoder9 »

mixedCase wrote: post #154
AWildC182 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gyro powered steam gauges are all but gone from aviation. The GA fleet is even shedding them at a promising rate. MEMS based independent systems with backup power are solid state and far more reliable than a janky vacuum pump driven by the engine running a couple clockwork instruments.

Sorry to be a pedant but since it took me a second to get it at first: "all but gone" implies that they're definitely still here, I think something like "almost gone" or "almost out of use" would be the right phrasing.

all but is an expression meaning almost. See e.g. https://grammarist.com/usage/all-but/. It's one of the most confusing English expressions I've encountered.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#168

Post by SEJeff »

nabla9 wrote: post #31
eternalny1 wrote: post #24

This is a seriously impressive bit of software engineering. It seems as simple as "push a button" to the layman but what happens when: There is a thunderstorm between the airport and the runway The nearest runway is closed due to a blizzard There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and the runway, an "offset approach" There is a 40-knot crosswind You have an engine out That's just a few, I'm a comme…

It's to be used only in the event that the pilot is incapacitated. Because it's an emergency feature engaged by a passenger or automatically, it probably can't manage all complex situations. It may be just good weather emergency landing. Check fuel and wind, steer to nearest emergency airport and land. Best effort is better than no effort and dying. > There is a mountain between the normal 3-degree glide-slope and th…

Cruise missiles don't "land" and they don't care about passenger safety :)

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#169

Post by outworlder »

o-__-o wrote: post #77
griffinkelly wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've flown airplanes with solid GA plane autopilot that'll fly down to decision height, but you still have to put in flaps, gear, change throttle. To have an airplane do all that on its own is quite impressive, particularly to do a 'nearest' type input on a Garmin then to land it on the appropriate runway, still confuses me sometimes if its a new airport I've never been at. I'd be interested to know if it declares an…

Why? Airbus and Boeing and even smaller planes like bombedaire have had this capability. With ads-b requirements on all planes it puts GA aircraft in line with jets (ads-b requires transmitting internal information that autopilot also processes) What I’m trying to say is that the auto land functionality is not a feat, it’s like self parking cars.. been around for 20 years just now cost efficient and safe enough for t…

> the pilot still needs to squawk 7777 and they should try comms, don’t know why a GA plane would be different..

The system being discussed is for when you no longer have a pilot.

Re: Piper Announces First GA Aircraft with Autoland Capability

#170

Post by jjwiseman »

briandear wrote: post #151
pc86 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CAPS is not supposed to be used because you have an engine out under most circumstances - you are perfectly capable of dead-sticking a Cirrus onto a runway just like any other small GA plane. And it's not a gentle float, it's ~1700fpm or about 20mph, straight down. The airframe and seats absorb a chunk of it but compared to a 500-700fpm descent on an engine-out landing, pulling CAPS because your engine dies with any…

Wrong. Check the Cirrus POH and exactly the opposite you said is true. In an engine out over the minimum altitude and under the pull speed, use the chute. Chute pulls are almost 100% survivable. Landing in a field is a much lower percentage. Just hitting nearly invisible power lines can slice a plane in half. You also have a fire danger when landing off airport. And many dead engine landings result in landing short o…

Yes. One of my friends died landing in a field with engine out.

It's almost impossible to tell what the situation is on the ground until it's too late--an unnoticed ditch can kill you.

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