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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#201

Post by kelvin0 »

I think it's great that they are able to be profitable in a great niche (25 years!).

As an ex - videogame developer I've shipped several titles from simple 'kids' games to AAA titles. Here's my take:

You CAN make good looking games on an indie budget. Plenty of indie developers do it. However this requires an Artistic Director which oversees the visual style and coherence for the game.

Some programmers (very few I know) have both technical talent and have a very good 'eye' artistically. They are able to make games and make them look good. It's once again still about style and visual coherence.

Obviously the writer of the post is not an artist so he might not necessarily have the time or inclination to dwell on such visual coherence and direction. That's fine, he accepts that.

But I can't agree with the fact that being and indie makes it harder to have a pleasing visual aesthetic. That is simply a question of choice, which you can rationalize with any type of arguments.

That being said I'm really impressed with their success and hope them all the best for the next 25 years!

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#202

Post by SkyBelow »

billfruit wrote: post #165
scotty79 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me the actual message is that he doesn't have money to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks, and he's not going to risk going into debt.

Yet some small developers have managed to build visually stunning games, like Brigadier. Enter The Gungeon, Stardew Valley, Dungeons Of The Endless, were all developed by very small teams.

I think it is partially a skill set issue. I can appreciate good pixel art but I am at a total loss for how to create it, which has been a major reason I haven't making my own game (and pixel art packs are each too small and feel too distinct to be able to mix). Some people just go with the graphics they can do, don't care about looks, and focus on making the games good in other ways. It probably prevents them from being as massive a hit, but that is likely a better place to be than where I am, still too unsure to get off the ground level and actually make something.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#203

Post by ozzmotik »

it's nice to see something like this. im personally of the mind that graphics really don't matter in video games; they are certainly nice, but you don't need state of the art, AAA high def rendering to make a video game compelling. i think ultimately the hallmark of an enjoyable game is how engaging and immersive it is, and how fluidly it exposes its mechanics to you and allows you a playground to exploit those mechanics.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#204

Post by anchpop »

meheleventyone wrote: post #53
fouc wrote: post #39

Honestly I think it's a shame when people are so picky about graphics. Some of the best games I've ever played were purely ASCII-based. I'm talking about various BBS games, or MUD-based games. There were also some really novel interfaces like like mTrek [0], and BattleTech 3030 MUX [1]. So much fun to play. [0] http://randsinrepose.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/mtrek.pn... [1] http://bt-thud.sourceforge.net/thud/big…

It's not so much being picky but that from a design perspective aesthetics should add to rather than detract from the experience. For a modern ASCII example take a look at Cogmind: https://i.imgur.com/lUpcTmF.gif From a commercial point of view the aesthetics are used by consumers as (perhaps unfairly) a judge of quality.

The aesthetics of that game make me want to go buy it right away just from that gif you linked, it just looks so interesting and unique!

And I don't think it's unfair to use aesthetics as a judge of quality. First of all, as you mentioned, nice aesthetics do enhance the experience. And second of all, it's a way to signal strength - a team not capable of making a good game will often not be capable of making it look interesting either, especially for indie games.

And it doesn't have to be that expensive either. There's a game I'm slightly affiliated with (but not in any monetary way) that has been made with a budget of $0 by volunteers (mostly highschoolers) and I think it looks good just because of the insane attention-to-detail and meticulousness of everyone involved. Here's [0] what it looks like for reference.

[0]: https://youtu.be/Uryrdj-DUcA?t=4

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#205

Post by vidarh »

chrisseaton wrote: post #44
m0nty wrote: post #10

ITT: lots of people missing the point that he doesn't actually believe his games look like crap, he's just made a conscious (and profitable) decision to go retro. He likes his games' visual style and values the freelancers who produce the art. I didn't think this is a difficult point but apparently it is.

> lots of people missing the point ... he's just made a conscious (and profitable) decision to go retro And in turn I think you're missing the point somewhat - people's point is that retro doesn't have to mean inconsistent art style and bad colours. There are lots of examples of beautiful retro games.

The question then is how many of them are from developers that have been able to consistently live off it for 25 years.

His point is not that it can't be better, but that he believes he can't do better without taking financial risks he does not believe to be worthwhile given that his current model works for him, and that his games look good relative to the constraints.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#206

Post by jlturner »

My brother and I have been working our way through the Exile series, and while they’re old and rough, the game content is really good. They make you feel like smart figuring out some tough optional puzzle, and there is a great sense of exploration and internal mapping.

Funny enough I never played any of Vogel’s games past Blades of Exile, and honestly, it’s because I think they look bad, aesthetically. I never felt this way about Exile, or even old Ultima games. The problem here isn’t “these games don’t have good graphics” but rather “these games don’t have good art direction/style/aesthetic”. Vogel says in the post he has used multiple artists with conflicting art styles, and it shows. As the games got higher resolution the problems just got more apparent.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#207

Post by systemtest »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

For me, pixel art is a technical limitation. I don't see the point of romanticising a technical limitation. What limitation are we going to do next? Retro low-poly 3D models? A soundtrack consisting of six songs only? Distributing the game on 13 floppy disks? Games that never get updates? Low quality collision objects? Null-model cable multiplayer? game_demo.exe file download from CNET.com? Anti-piracy methods by having to look up words from a book?

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#208

Post by mysterydip »

systemtest wrote: post #207
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

For me, pixel art is a technical limitation. I don't see the point of romanticising a technical limitation. What limitation are we going to do next? Retro low-poly 3D models? A soundtrack consisting of six songs only? Distributing the game on 13 floppy disks? Games that never get updates? Low quality collision objects? Null-model cable multiplayer? game_demo.exe file download from CNET.com? Anti-piracy methods by hav…

low-poly (and often untextured) 3D models is already a style being used in indie gamedev, seeme like it came into vogue a year or two ago.

chiptunes are also a stylistic choice some games make over full hi def sounds and music.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#209

Post by pcmaffey »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

> People who grew up with Nintendo and Sega really like pixel art. As one of those people, I really don't like pixel art at all. Today's pixel art looks nothing like games did back in the day. The simple reason is that those Nintendo and Sega games weren't played on 27" 4k LCD monitors or 65" OLED TV's but on on the barely 14" CRT in my bedroom. We didn't have huge pixely sprites, they were small and blurry. It had a…

Id also argue that pixel art is the default fallback for people who don’t like 3d engine graphics, which I personally can’t stand. I love to see evolution of 2d graphics using our latest and greatest tech.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#210

Post by vidarh »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #158
CathedralBorrow wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting pattern to notice; well written articles that pre-emptively address common questions, and then a pile of comments that ask those exact same questions.

Some articles (like this) don't address common questions, they brush them aside, possibly not realizing that actually addressing them would remove the point behind the article.

It's more that people don't like the answer: That he's happy with where he is, feels safe doing what he knows works, and don't want to take risks that could very well give him a massive boost but could also make his business fail.
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