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Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

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Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#201

Post by firstplacelast »

trilila wrote: post #139

I think this points out the elephant in the room: why are so many people in supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties? This is an issue that needs to be solved hand in hand with pollution: less travel, less need for a car, and more living outside overcrowded cities means more living space. So how can we move more jobs to suburbs, where people can work at nearby or home locations and can afford more liv…

Because people are willing to work for wages that can't buy them the shittiest home within a reasonable commute to their office.

If people were more willing to die, unionize, or advocate for a mediocre life, this wouldn't happen.

If you're working for less than it takes to buy the shittiest home in your city, you are exacerbating inequality and thus making the world worse. Better to sit on the sidewalk until you're dead.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#202

Post by [deleted] »

DataGata wrote: post #183
neogodless wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laundry. That just might be the perfect example. What a huge division of experience between the wealthy and the less wealthy. Most homeowners have laundry in their home. Starting and switching loads is a few minutes, and the rest of their time is still free. Many high-end apartments have laundry within a short walk from each residence. It's largely the same experience. But then those with less ability to afford "nice…

Why will public chargers be slow? We should assume that those who provide public charging services (the gas stations of the future) will be trying to optimize throughput + convenience store sales. DC fast chargers currently get you 40 miles in ten minutes[1] (that sucks!) so your extra 20 miles gets you an extra 5 minute wait. Presumably that wait can be "limited" by getting your shopping done or grabbing a bite to e…

[deleted]

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#203

Post by hindsightRegret »

whalesalad wrote: post #181
trilila wrote: post #139

I think this points out the elephant in the room: why are so many people in supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties? This is an issue that needs to be solved hand in hand with pollution: less travel, less need for a car, and more living outside overcrowded cities means more living space. So how can we move more jobs to suburbs, where people can work at nearby or home locations and can afford more liv…

This is my hangup too, and it crosses over into the craze around building high density housing in California. I don’t want high density housing. I don’t think anyone does. I want a yard for my dogs to play, for my wife to nurture the garden she has always wanted, for fruit trees, a garage where I can work on my car, etc... We have so much land all around this country and no one is using it.

Many people without families don't see the need for a yard/garage/garden when they live on their own and can take public transit in a high-density area. These people value proximity to bars/restaurants/experiences and are okay with trading off space for a shorter commute more things to within their nearby surroundings.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#204

Post by golover721 »

wffurr wrote: post #127

Yet another reason the real answer to the climate crisis isn't EVs - it's public transit, bicycles, e-bikes, scooters, e-scooters, walking, etc. All these other modes are much lower impact on the environment than purchasing and operating an EV, much less an ICE.

It’s never going to be a one size fits all solution. While all the things you mention work for “some” people, an EV is the best option for “some” people.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#205

Post by colechristensen »

trilila wrote: post #139

I think this points out the elephant in the room: why are so many people in supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties? This is an issue that needs to be solved hand in hand with pollution: less travel, less need for a car, and more living outside overcrowded cities means more living space. So how can we move more jobs to suburbs, where people can work at nearby or home locations and can afford more liv…

>why are so many people in supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties?

Housing costs seem to scale to the maximum that the population can pay, and people are willing to accept housing which is a little less than they think they need for a little more than they think they can afford. Generations of this have people growing up wanting what is "normal" and accepting a little less, each generation's normal is a little less while costing the same.

The only thing that can be done about this is removing the third parties making money off of that trend – each generation of homes is a little smaller for the same amount of (inflation or whatever adjusted) money and the difference is getting sucked into the financial and real estate sectors giving far more profits than useful work done.

Or we can just wait for peak-population to pass and an enormous crash where there will be far more housing than people and buying a house will be a money-losing venture you do because you want the space for yourself and not as an investment.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#206

Post by mikeash »

whalesalad wrote: post #181
trilila wrote: post #139

I think this points out the elephant in the room: why are so many people in supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties? This is an issue that needs to be solved hand in hand with pollution: less travel, less need for a car, and more living outside overcrowded cities means more living space. So how can we move more jobs to suburbs, where people can work at nearby or home locations and can afford more liv…

This is my hangup too, and it crosses over into the craze around building high density housing in California. I don’t want high density housing. I don’t think anyone does. I want a yard for my dogs to play, for my wife to nurture the garden she has always wanted, for fruit trees, a garage where I can work on my car, etc... We have so much land all around this country and no one is using it.

I don’t want high density housing. But I want things that require high density housing: the ability to walk to lots of places and good public transportation when I want to go farther.

I’ve compromised on an expensive lower density location which has a bit of that. I’m happy with it, but plenty of people will make those compromises differently.

It would be great if we could all live in big houses with big yards and have stores and restaurants down the street, but basic economics and geometry means you can’t.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#207

Post by thephyber »

whalesalad wrote: post #181
trilila wrote: post #139

I think this points out the elephant in the room: why are so many people in supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties? This is an issue that needs to be solved hand in hand with pollution: less travel, less need for a car, and more living outside overcrowded cities means more living space. So how can we move more jobs to suburbs, where people can work at nearby or home locations and can afford more liv…

This is my hangup too, and it crosses over into the craze around building high density housing in California. I don’t want high density housing. I don’t think anyone does. I want a yard for my dogs to play, for my wife to nurture the garden she has always wanted, for fruit trees, a garage where I can work on my car, etc... We have so much land all around this country and no one is using it.

> We have so much land all around this country and no one is using it.

As the old real estate mantra goes, "Location, Location, Location!"

Of course you can buy a house with a yard and a large garage, but can you buy it on a regionally-adjusted salary and be reasonably close to a town and your workplace? Locality is still important for the vast majority of jobs, even in this age when the capability to telecommute is here.

I think the key contributor to this asymmetry is the scarcity of the human attention. People remember a handful of cities/towns which they associate with prosperity, despite the fact/possibility that far more areas are also prosperous. It's the same reason that a few dozen universities at the top of the rankings thrive, while perfectly decent schools just below them struggle to attract applicants.

Whether the issue at mind is red/blue state or rural/urban, Americans have become more risk-averse when it comes to moving to different regions.

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#208

Post by rconti »

s0rce wrote: post #193
whalesalad wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my hangup too, and it crosses over into the craze around building high density housing in California. I don’t want high density housing. I don’t think anyone does. I want a yard for my dogs to play, for my wife to nurture the garden she has always wanted, for fruit trees, a garage where I can work on my car, etc... We have so much land all around this country and no one is using it.

Unless you live in a very small community the downside of this is horrible traffic.

This; suburbs don't scale.

disclaimer: I charge my car in my suburban driveway

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#209

Post by goatinaboat »

chc wrote: post #40
goatinaboat wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

parking meters probably already need electricity Not 50A they don’t. Retrofitting it would be a substantial engineering effort.

You don't necessarily need 50A everywhere. Level 1 charging only needs about 12A. It's slow, but if you can be plugged in most of the time, it doesn't particularly matter that it's slow. That's probably enough to keep you topped off when you're just doing light commuting. A lot of level 1, a healthy amount of of level 2 and a smattering of level 3 would probably cover people's charging needs.

It’s still a pretty big upgrade. Parking meters take basically trivial power to run right now. The ones near me are solar! They might not even be connected to the grid at all!

Re: Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars?

#210

Post by Eric_WVGG »

trilila wrote: post #139

I think this points out the elephant in the room: why are so many people in supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties? This is an issue that needs to be solved hand in hand with pollution: less travel, less need for a car, and more living outside overcrowded cities means more living space. So how can we move more jobs to suburbs, where people can work at nearby or home locations and can afford more liv…

Funny, I was thinking something similar but from a completely different direction — the problem, IMO, isn’t that people in cities can't afford to buy garages, but that they want cars at all.

The problem that these “garage orphans” don’t get is that society doesn’t owe anyone a free parking space. When one can’t afford car payments, or insurance, or gasoline, they aren’t allowed to simply go out and take it; but for some reason, we give away precious space to people who can’t afford garages.

There’s a whole book on this topic, for anyone who’s interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Cost_of_Free_Parking

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