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Ask YC: Why the degree?

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Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#201

Post by Hexstream »

LPTS wrote: post #20

Maybe a degree means you are too willing to accept mindless mediocrity (like that found in our education system) and no degree (but the same level of ability) means the person is both autodidactic and unwilling to accept everyday mediocracies like found in our education system. So the effect of demanding degrees is one of mediocre organizations (which are mediocre on account of, for example, routinely doing very dumb…

"There are lots of studies that show very little to no relationship between grades and intelligence or grades and creativity. But organizations are unwilling to put this scientific knowledge into use."

I think that's the confirmation bias at work. If such an organization learns that a PhD-holder is real good the reaction will be: "Well what do you expect, it's a PhD!" but facing a successful self-taught person they'd say: "How did he manage to do that without a degree? Must be luck..."

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#202

Post by gnaritas »

LogicHoleFlaw wrote: post #194
gnaritas wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, any candidate worth having would enjoy such a test. Any programmer who is put off by being asked to program needs to find another profession, period. You should not ask someone to program during an interview, you should review the code they've submitted and make them explain it, all if it, their design choices, their idioms, naming conventions, etc. If they can't discuss code they just wrote prior to the…

One issue to be aware of is that it's not just the corporation interviewing multiple candidates. It's also the candidate interviewing multiple companies. Putting a large burden on each candidate may not scale if every company does it. I agree that it's important to assess actual coding ability but I don't know if a programming test is the best way to go about it.

Any programmer who considers such a trivial test a large burden, you don't want. There's no other way to assess programming ability than programming, it's really that simple. If you hire an unknown programmer without making him submit a code sample, then you deserve what you get because you're gambling and likely to lose. The whole point is to find good programmers, and good programmers enjoy programming, they'll happily write a trivial program to prove it, happily. Anyone who balks at such a test is not someone you want to hire, period.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#203

Post by Hexstream »

maxklein wrote: post #52
LPTS wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When you learn by yourself, you tend to learn enough to do what you need to get done. In school you learn things that are not immediately obvious that you need them." No, no, no. YOU tend to only do the minimum to do what needs to get done without outside pressure. Don't project your flaws onto us self teaching people who don't share them. Any autodidactic person will constantly be learning both generalist and speci…

The thing is this: There are some things that ones does not know that one does not know. And only in a formal teaching environment is one introduced to these topics. Most schools give a healthy dose of general knowledge together with the domain specific knowledge. And most self learners tend to stick to domain specific topics. I don't know how self taught you are, but 100% of my income comes from things I learned mys…

"only in a formal teaching environment is one introduced to these topics."

That looks like dangerous thinking to me. I guess it's conforting to think that what you never heard of in your "formal teaching environment" doesn't exist or doesn't matter. School can only expose so many topics to you. It can go deeper than necessary in some topics that won't be relevant to you and completely ignore others that would be.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#204

Post by LPTS »

xlnt wrote: post #188
erdos2 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You asked for a source: I provided one. A request for an explanation is something else. I'll give you another source instead: http://www2.owen.vanderbilt.edu/Mike.Shor/courses/GTheory/do... As for $35, it pains me to mention libraries...it was a source, with a link so that you could see something about the book. I can't say I know of a single public intellectual or professional philosopher who takes Rand seriously. I…

your new source is basics, not new results. i just wanted an interesting paper on new results to read. those are normally published online. your ignorance of public intellectuals and professional philosophers is not an argument against Rand. lol.

No professional philosophers take Rand seriously, except for a couple whackos in a couple places.

I understand if your 15 how exciting Rand can be. But to see adults take it seriously is sad.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#205

Post by rms »

falsestprophet wrote: post #196
rms wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-intellectualism will be the death of us all.

Using that word may not be pretentious, but -- worse -- it is bad form. An intellectual might object to the word's use in this context simply because it is bad writing. The goal of writing to communicate. Unnecessarily using obscure words clouds communication. In this case, I don't think the using "autodidact" was necessary. It did not add to brevity or cadence or coherence. It was a mistake. The only thing worse tha…

No, using precise words enhances communication. There are different connotations between the words.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#206

Post by falsestprophet »

rms wrote: post #205
falsestprophet wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using that word may not be pretentious, but -- worse -- it is bad form. An intellectual might object to the word's use in this context simply because it is bad writing. The goal of writing to communicate. Unnecessarily using obscure words clouds communication. In this case, I don't think the using "autodidact" was necessary. It did not add to brevity or cadence or coherence. It was a mistake. The only thing worse tha…

No, using precise words enhances communication. There are different connotations between the words.

"Self-taught" and "autodidactic" are denotatively equivalent, so from that perspective the word "autodidactic" is absolutely not more precise.

What's more, relying on connotation to enhance precision is kind of silly. Connotation is highly subjective and often inconsistant across a community.

One good example of this fact is that few people here seem to see the connotative difference between the two words in question. I don't.

Maybe you can help us. Thanks.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#207

Post by rms »

falsestprophet wrote: post #206
rms wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, using precise words enhances communication. There are different connotations between the words.

"Self-taught" and "autodidactic" are denotatively equivalent, so from that perspective the word "autodidactic" is absolutely not more precise. What's more, relying on connotation to enhance precision is kind of silly. Connotation is highly subjective and often inconsistant across a community. One good example of this fact is that few people here seem to see the connotative difference between the two words in question…

Ironically (or pseudo-ironically?), the very difference in connotation between self-taught and autodidactic is pretentiousness. Perhaps not quite pretentiousness, but more of a difference in social class -- a self-described autodidact is indicating that even though they are self-taught, they are not "blue collar" self-taught.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#208

Post by rms »

rms wrote: post #207
falsestprophet wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Self-taught" and "autodidactic" are denotatively equivalent, so from that perspective the word "autodidactic" is absolutely not more precise. What's more, relying on connotation to enhance precision is kind of silly. Connotation is highly subjective and often inconsistant across a community. One good example of this fact is that few people here seem to see the connotative difference between the two words in question…

Ironically (or pseudo-ironically?), the very difference in connotation between self-taught and autodidactic is pretentiousness. Perhaps not quite pretentiousness, but more of a difference in social class -- a self-described autodidact is indicating that even though they are self-taught, they are not "blue collar" self-taught.

And it's not that self-taught always means lower class, it's just that autodidact always means higher class. There must be a better word in English for the type of distinction in words I am describing here, maybe someone can enlighten me...

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#209

Post by LPTS »

rms wrote: post #207
falsestprophet wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Self-taught" and "autodidactic" are denotatively equivalent, so from that perspective the word "autodidactic" is absolutely not more precise. What's more, relying on connotation to enhance precision is kind of silly. Connotation is highly subjective and often inconsistant across a community. One good example of this fact is that few people here seem to see the connotative difference between the two words in question…

Ironically (or pseudo-ironically?), the very difference in connotation between self-taught and autodidactic is pretentiousness. Perhaps not quite pretentiousness, but more of a difference in social class -- a self-described autodidact is indicating that even though they are self-taught, they are not "blue collar" self-taught.

Um, fuck you. Really, I mean it. My mom, a single mother, worked full time doing hard physical labor in a bakery. Her back is still sore from all the hard work she did to raise me and my brother. We lived in cheap housing, paycheck to paycheck for years, and went to pretty crappy public schools. I don't see how you get anything about economic class from the word I used.

We were poor growing up. I liked to read. I learned big words when I read, and I use them when I communicate. End of story.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#210

Post by timcederman »

LPTS wrote: post #199
falsestprophet wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using that word may not be pretentious, but -- worse -- it is bad form. An intellectual might object to the word's use in this context simply because it is bad writing. The goal of writing to communicate. Unnecessarily using obscure words clouds communication. In this case, I don't think the using "autodidact" was necessary. It did not add to brevity or cadence or coherence. It was a mistake. The only thing worse tha…

I feel like I'm in junior high getting bullied for being a nerd. I'm so sorry for using a big word. In the future I'll try and limit myself to a fifth grade reading level (maybe reaching rhetorical, which is a fancy word for a skillful kind of speech, heights of seventh or eighth grade level) so that the idiotic (for you mouth-breathers, idiotic is a big cloudy multisyllabalic way of saying dumb that fails to add bre…

...and then you 'defend' yourself by finishing up with statements like that? Wow.
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