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Ask YC: Why the degree?

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Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#181
post #140
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those following along at home, the unpretentious word for "autodidact" is "self-taught"

It's not pretentious just because you don't know it. "Autodidactic" sums up a phrase using just one word. Basically it comes down to this: Having a larger vocabulary allows you to spend more time communicating and less time talking. Just like abstracting functionality away inside functions allows you to spend more time solving problems and less time (re)writing code.

You're certainly right about abstraction being useful. My fist thought was that the simple-English for autodidactic here would be "self-taught", being aware of unnecessary abstractions, though the subtler meaning is closer to "someone who will teach themselves".

Simply saying "self-taught" wouldn't have had the right connotation: instead of "clever and driven", it would have been, "but what have they missed?" and we would have missed out on this interesting off-topic sub-thread!

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#182
post #138
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they'll turn to books and self teaching long before school unless they're extremely young and still think of school as life. On the contrary, many people take classes and attend conferences, workshops and seminars at many different ages. You could learn cooking by self study, but cooking classes continue to be popular, despite being more expensive. The only thing school has to offer over self directed learning is ver…

There's a difference between conferences, workshops, etc. and school.

Different venues perhaps, but for someone attending because they want to, the goals are much the same.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#183
post #9

what are you doing right now? i hope smart people like you are always busy doing something creative - if possible can u post your email please - i would like to contact you.

I am currently in the process of launching a new product for my business.

You can contact me at: matthewking [dot] yc [at] gmail.com

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stats on college attendance would seem to be against you since about 70% of the population doesn't do it... In what country? Citation? Here's some numbers from the UK: http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/faqs/showFaq.asp?l1=2&ID... According to that, 43% of 17-30 year olds enter higher education in the UK.

My apologies for the U.S. cultural assumption. See http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-550.pdf for what it's like here. I also presumed we're discussing those who finish college, not those who just enter it. What percentage actually finish college in the UK?

The OECD stats look quite interesting. They break things down into Type A[1] and Type B[2] programs. Superficially, Type A are 3+ year courses, Type B are 2+ year courses. Results for the UK and US are here[3][xls]. Executive summary: for the 3-4 year Type A graduates, in the UK, 97% graduate. The OECD average is 67%. This report also has data for the US.

For actual numbers of people in the UK with degrees, there's this page[4] from the National Statistics. For people of Working Age, 18 to 60-ish, in the UK, 16% have degrees, and another 8.5% have "Higher education qualifications". 15% have no qualifications. It would be handy to have data for the 25-35 age range, since not many 18 year olds have degrees.

[1] Type A: http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=5440

[2] Type B: http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=544

[3] World Stats: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/17/15/39245059.xls

[4] UK Degree Stats: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/Product.asp?vlnk=10446

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#185
post #111
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most desirable companies get so many resumes that they need to filter out most of them. I used to work for a popular search engine before Google came into the picture. As an engineer I had to interview people every week. HR handed me lots of resumes from people with CS degrees from top universities for phone screening. They didn't bother with the rest unless someone was heavily recommended by a trusted source.

Do you think you were doing it the best way possible?

His employer's search business got eaten by Google, at the time I think Google were hiring 50%+ PhDs.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#186
post #178
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you must be aware, many smart people disagree with you about Rand, and can back it up with something better than a youtube video. And anyway, you said her philosophy contains certain flaws. That doesn't imply it's not valuable and useful overall, so even if I concede your points, it's not very important. The reasons I like Rand have nothing to do with "axiom of reflexivity of identity" or that other stuff you said…

You asked for a source: I provided one. A request for an explanation is something else. I'll give you another source instead: http://www2.owen.vanderbilt.edu/Mike.Shor/courses/GTheory/do... As for $35, it pains me to mention libraries...it was a source, with a link so that you could see something about the book. I can't say I know of a single public intellectual or professional philosopher who takes Rand seriously. I…

>I can't say I know of a single public intellectual

Alan Greenspan (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/15/business/15atlas.html).

Clarence Thomas (http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1090180289132).

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#187
Well, to mention, I agree with you that engineers without degrees can be awesome. I've interviewed a couple hundred engineers and reviewed thousands of resumes, and when I see people without degrees I look for really solid experience and/or lots of personal projects that show what they've done/experienced. Often those candidates turn out to be just as good engineers in the long-run, and sometimes better since they've come this far without needing a degree in a college-focused career path.

That being said, I think you're misunderstanding a bit what a degree conveys and why it's attractive to companies.

For one, it gives you a grade against some sort of scale that can be used to measure general aptitude. Even if GPA isn't a score from a truly ideal "test", it's a known quantity and you can roughly gauge what that number means. Yet comparing a GPA of "3.6" against "dropped out of school and studied programming" is really hard to do-- the GPA gives you a rating from an accredited university of scholars about how much that candidate studied, learned and worked. The other is just one person's word with some rough and hard to verify guidance you might be able to get from references (and/or your own research).

If someone were looking across listings to buy a good race horse, it's a gamble for them to take the seller's word (and do their own independent research) that the "horse is wicked fast" no matter how many times you said you personally timed it. The average buyer would be more inclined to go after the documented/well-known winners from public races. Now, we all know that's not necessarily the most profitable strategy, but it is usually a safe one. Those that ignore the other candidates risk missing a "sleeper" that really can shake things up, but that's part of the game.

So your strategy should be to look for those companies that are willing to take those chances rather than worrying so much about the ones that filter everything by institution and GPA. I also advise you to approach them in some way that shakes up their expectations a little anyway (e.g. sending them your resume printed on rolled scrolls, handing it to them in-person at some interesting event, through a respected employee, etc). You want them to think about you differently, so give them a reason to think you're a clever puppy outside the mold that they might have missed otherwise. If you only approach them like the other candidates do, it's not surprising that they'd grade you against the same criteria for the other candidates.

It's also important to keep in mind that bachelor degrees don't just convey "Computer Science". They also convey all of the other non-CompSci courses that you need to graduate. It's a general show of discipline across courses and studies with one of the biggest being written communication. If you don't have a degree, it would be awesome to also provide them examples that you've written (white papers/essays/speeches/etc) to help show that you're a well-rounded candidate that doesn't just know how to sit behind a computer and code. I promise you that's not all they're looking for.

You also have the fun option of showing them all up and just starting your own business. Here are just a few that didn't make it through college and changed the entire world: http://www.portfolio.com/executives/features/2008/04/14/Bril...

Best of luck to you.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#188
post #178
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you must be aware, many smart people disagree with you about Rand, and can back it up with something better than a youtube video. And anyway, you said her philosophy contains certain flaws. That doesn't imply it's not valuable and useful overall, so even if I concede your points, it's not very important. The reasons I like Rand have nothing to do with "axiom of reflexivity of identity" or that other stuff you said…

You asked for a source: I provided one. A request for an explanation is something else. I'll give you another source instead: http://www2.owen.vanderbilt.edu/Mike.Shor/courses/GTheory/do... As for $35, it pains me to mention libraries...it was a source, with a link so that you could see something about the book. I can't say I know of a single public intellectual or professional philosopher who takes Rand seriously. I…

your new source is basics, not new results. i just wanted an interesting paper on new results to read. those are normally published online.

your ignorance of public intellectuals and professional philosophers is not an argument against Rand. lol.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#189
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the programming industry, it's not really that hard to filter out bad candidates. You shouldn't waste time talking to any programmer not willing to submit to some simplistic programming test in lieu of a resume. Resumes are crap and have no place in hiring programmers. Code is all that matters, either they can do it or they can't and if they can, they'll accept your challenge. Nothing makes for a better interview…

Dont be the kind of employer that asks for a week long project as a resume. That's just irritating.

I didn't say that, I'm talking an hour or two long project here.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#190
post #19

"I know several people that have degree's in computer science, and none have any magical abilities that you only pickup at university." I think you are shortchanging the value of a formal education. You are forced to learn things you don't necessarily enjoy. For example, I was forced to take a few stats courses which I found extremely boring, but recently at work it was incredibly valuable. I know I thought I was a g…

>I realize it is 'just a piece of paper', but that piece of paper signifies an accomplishment.

What's written on that piece of paper is more important than the accomplishment in my experience, at least as long as finding a job is concerned.

If a company deals with hundreds of applicants they need some way of trimming them down, and not having a computer science degree will put you at a disadvantage even if you do have some other degree. I've been rejected for jobs because I have a physics degree and not "Comp. Sci"; I'm sure there are mathematicians on here who can say the same thing.

This might not be so true for startups, but I suspect that when faced with a deluge of applicants even startups will go straight for the "Comp . Sci" degrees if just to make the numbers managable.

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