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Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

workingwa.org

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Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#201

Post by tedivm »

bargl wrote: post #169
burger_moon wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service. I'm going to send at most 3 angry tweets about this before I forget about it and move on to the next thing to be upset about today.

While I agree that the parent comment should probably drop them. This comment won't get them to stop. Maybe something like proposing alternatives, and empathy. We don't know them so let's not generalize them into the crowd of 3 tweeters. I use Uber from time to time. Knowing full well that they have some practices I admonish. I use Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Safeway, etc. I try to be a better consumer with products b…

I'll drop them if it comes down to it, but if anyone actually read the link I shared it would show that what I'm doing is supporting the worker led action that is trying to make change. The workers themselves are asking people to keep using the service, but to only tip 22 cents in the app (paying the rest of the tip in cash) in protest.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#202

Post by lenticular »

berbec wrote: post #183
aqme28 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Boycotts essentially never work Is this true?

No, this is not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_bus_boycott

"Essentially" is the operative word here. The Montgomery bus boycott was a small, geographically limited boycott at just the right time for an issue that was incredibly important personally to the boycotters. The boycotters were directly being very negatively affected by the bus segregation, thus they had much more of a personal stake than an upper-middle class individual who feels a pang of guilt after taking an Uber.

Go ahead, try to organize a boycott. I'll support it. I guarantee you it won't go anywhere, though.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#203

Post by DATACOMMANDER »

B-Con wrote: post #32

> That's right: the customer's tip doesn't get added to the worker's check — it just gets deducted from what Instacart pays. In other words, up-front tips go to Instacart, not to the worker. My understanding is that the Fair Labor Standards Act does not allow for employers to whithold tips.[0] Gratuity/tip is a legally recognized concept. You can't just throw the word in your app and do what you want with the money i…

I hope that one of the employers in the new “gig economy” gets taken to court over the contractor-versus-employee issue and that the case sets a sane precedent. An old joke (“western koan”?) comes to mind:

Suppose that we decide to call dogs cats. In that case, what is a domesticated canine? Answer: it’s a dog, whatever you choose to call it.

(Pretty sure I butchered that, but hopefully the point still came through.)

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#204

Post by supernova87a »

I guess the real test of how this system works is:

-- if TIP > minimum wage -- does Instacart record a negative -$ adjustment

such that a person's payment will only ever be the maximum payment, regardless of how much tip the customer gives?

That would really be egregious.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#205

Post by hoorayimhelping »

jopsen wrote: post #131
atom-morgan wrote: post #97

Seriously, this is the responsibility consumers have in a free market. If there's behavior you don't like, move on. You don't get to complain about bad actors when you're literally keeping them in business.

No, this is why you have regulation, and need unions. Consumers have enough parameters to optimize for: price of groceries, cost of delivery, fair trade, availability of products, delivery speed, convenience, availability of delivery slots, the list is long. Consumers are relatively good at optimizing for cost, not perfect -- but asking for more than that is unrealistic.

There has to be some HN version of Godwin's law involving Unions.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#206

Post by sametmax »

jopsen wrote: post #131
atom-morgan wrote: post #97

Seriously, this is the responsibility consumers have in a free market. If there's behavior you don't like, move on. You don't get to complain about bad actors when you're literally keeping them in business.

No, this is why you have regulation, and need unions. Consumers have enough parameters to optimize for: price of groceries, cost of delivery, fair trade, availability of products, delivery speed, convenience, availability of delivery slots, the list is long. Consumers are relatively good at optimizing for cost, not perfect -- but asking for more than that is unrealistic.

There is no democraty if the people don't exercice their power. Voting once for a group of people make it one day democraty, the rest of the year oligarchy.

There is litterally no other way to have a democraty that to make your day to day actions matter. Each citizen has to have a life directed to create a society.

Now I understand how hard it is. And I don't blame people for failing at it, me included. But as long as we label it as unrealistic, it stops all hope of progress.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#207

Post by gamblor956 »

lenticular wrote: post #83
dhimes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. They need to pay reimburse those workers with a penalty fee tacked on.

That's not necessarily true. Folks in the gig economy are often classed as "independent contractors" and thus are not subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act, including minimum wage laws. They also are not entitled to, nor almost ever receive, reimbursements for work expenses. When you are talking about using your own vehicle and paying for depreciation, mechanical work, and gas, this is considerable. It often winds…

I wouldn't be so sure about their lawyers being "very aware" of the law. If they were, they wouldn't have called it a "tip" in the first place, as "tip" has a specific legal meaning in most states and in the US tax code.

In fact, I would hesitate to say that the lawyers for most startups have any clue what they're doing, as most seem to be in it to play startup lawyer rather than provide necessary legal advice to their client/employer.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#208

Post by throwaway5752 »

I am 100% in favor of tipping, and all of you people calling to ban it don't understand service jobs. Those doing so should be ashamed, as they are effectively victim-blaming in this context (in what really seems close to wage theft, at least in spirit, by Instacart) to push this cause.

This is really much more a story of ethics in software development. Someone had to know they were doing the wrong thing when they wrote this.

edit: No, not going to talk about tipping. Like it or not, it is extremely common all over the world, and unrelated to this submission (which is about lowering "shopper's" compensation to almost negligible levels when tips are given).

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#209

Post by bargl »

tedivm wrote: post #201
bargl wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that the parent comment should probably drop them. This comment won't get them to stop. Maybe something like proposing alternatives, and empathy. We don't know them so let's not generalize them into the crowd of 3 tweeters. I use Uber from time to time. Knowing full well that they have some practices I admonish. I use Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Safeway, etc. I try to be a better consumer with products b…

I'll drop them if it comes down to it, but if anyone actually read the link I shared it would show that what I'm doing is supporting the worker led action that is trying to make change. The workers themselves are asking people to keep using the service, but to only tip 22 cents in the app (paying the rest of the tip in cash) in protest.

I saw that and that's even better. Which is part of why I don't like people jumping on the shame bandwagon without knowing the full story.

Thanks for clarifying. Good on you for taking an active approach to this and being thoughtful.

Also - I think this is where the power of the unionization comes into effect. While Unions can be a tremendous blocker of progress I feel that the pendulum has swung too far the against them.

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