Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip • Hacker News Board

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#181

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #126

babaganoosh89 wrote: post #37

DoorDash does the same thing of “stealing” tips. Either you should tip in cash or not at all.

I want the worker to receive 100% of the tip as much as anyone. But does anyone else find it obnoxious that all these digital services exist, often starting out with no tip straight pricing, then tipping re-appears, and then you suddenly need physical cash to morally use the service at all? Obviously workers should get fairly compensated. The problem is tipping culture itself, just set a price that customers are will…

> The US needs law changes that outlaw tipping.

No, it just needs to not treat workers that might receive tips differently: they should have he same minimum wages as other workers and tips should not count as compensation by the employer satisfying minimum wage mandates.

Private employers might then wish to prohibit employees accepting tips (since it no longer benefits the employer as it does now for the worker to be classes as “tipped”), for similar reasons to those for which public employers already do.

EDIT: And we need better enforcement (and possibly slight changes to the basic rules) against mischaracterization of employees as contractors, which is most of the problem in this case.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#182

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

lenticular wrote: post #83

dhimes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. They need to pay reimburse those workers with a penalty fee tacked on.

That's not necessarily true. Folks in the gig economy are often classed as "independent contractors" and thus are not subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act, including minimum wage laws. They also are not entitled to, nor almost ever receive, reimbursements for work expenses. When you are talking about using your own vehicle and paying for depreciation, mechanical work, and gas, this is considerable. It often winds…

[deleted]

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#183

Post by berbec » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

aqme28 wrote: post #151

lenticular wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collective action is essentially impossible among consumers though. Boycotts essentially never work. Not only that, but who are you going to use instead of instacart: Amazon Fresh? Uber? Or will you drive yourself to the store and buy it from minimum wage employees who work unstable hours? Also, what do you think the working conditions were like for whoever picked that asparagus?

>Boycotts essentially never work Is this true?

No, this is not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_bus_boycott

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#184

Post by CameronBanga » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #126

babaganoosh89 wrote: post #37

DoorDash does the same thing of “stealing” tips. Either you should tip in cash or not at all.

I want the worker to receive 100% of the tip as much as anyone. But does anyone else find it obnoxious that all these digital services exist, often starting out with no tip straight pricing, then tipping re-appears, and then you suddenly need physical cash to morally use the service at all? Obviously workers should get fairly compensated. The problem is tipping culture itself, just set a price that customers are will…

Agree. Though the more I think about it, this is an opportunity for disruption. TaaS. An e-commerce platform, maybe even validated and protected on the blockchain, where users can exchange digital payments in an effort to circumvent these horrible practices.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#185

Post by mesozoic » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

This is legal though right? Isn't it the same way restaurants pay their servers so little wage?

My opinion is abolish tip culture.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#186

Post by dsl » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

TomMckenny wrote: post #47

_t2kx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From my perspective Instacart is stealing from its customers and workers by doing this. This is 100% wage theft.

They better hope there's no binding arbitration clause.

The workers may be subject to arbitration, but state regulators (who enforce employment law) are not.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#187

Post by gbear605 » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

aqme28 wrote: post #162

lenticular wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't wage theft since they are independent contractors. It's more like a company stiffing a supplier. More of a civil than criminal matter. Of course, these folks wouldn't have the resources to sue anyway, even if they weren't bound by binding arbitration.

> More of a civil than criminal matter I think the question though is _why_ is that? If I steal $950 from someone then it's criminal, but if I refuse to pay them what I agreed then it's civil. It's an odd discrepancy IMO.

For one, we probably don't need the police to come and arrest Instacart's CEO in this case.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#188

Post by mesozoic » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #15

steve19 wrote: post #5

This is terrible for the worker and highly deceptive to the client. Surely this is fraud? Collecting tips but not passing it on?

Of course it's illegal to steal tips, but actually enforcing that is another matter. Companies will blatantly build illegal business models. And of course some developer coded this automated tip stealing.

Can you cite any statute that says this is illegal?

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#189

Post by stonogo » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

jonathlee wrote: post #146

Zecar wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (3) The restaurant does not adjust wages after tips have been received In many cases they do. If you receive zero tips for a shift, they are obligated to pay out minimum wage. If you receive $200 in tips for a shift, they pay out a lower figure, usually around $2.

This must be a new thing or only apply to certain states/cities. I've never saw this happen back when I was doing low wage work.

This has been United States federal law since 1938.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#190

Post by javagram » Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

deepsun wrote: post #99

_t2kx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From my perspective Instacart is stealing from its customers and workers by doing this. This is 100% wage theft.

Many many places do that. I worked in PizzaHut in NJ, and they pay you less than minimum wage initially. Then you report your earnings, and if your tips + salary / hoursworked So you have incentive to report 0.0 tips. But then our manager at PizzaHut let go everyone who reported 0.0 tips (when asked why, he said they called customers to confirm we did receive tips). And that's not only PizzaHut, that's everyone doing…

Many states have what’s known as a tipped minimum wage which is different from the minimum wage.

The tipped minimum is usually something like $2 vs the $7 minimum wage (these numbers are probably off now that so many places have raised the minimum wage to $10 or $12).

Since in this instacart case they ended up paying out $.80 an hour it’s below even tipped minimum wage standards, although I assume there’s some dodge about claiming the employees are contractors to get around paying wages.