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China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

reuters.com

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Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#201

Post by Nomentatus »

wallace_f wrote: post #174
microcolonel wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on whether the factors leading to shorter life are deliberate (or just willful ) or accidental.

It's hard to flesh out self determination from ennvironmental factors. Not to sound overwhelmingly 'r/iam14andthisisdeep, but consider: 1) Nomadic hunter gatherers who have shortened their lifespans due to their lifestyle choices, or lack of choice/information in determining their lifestyle; and 2) App developers who may also have shortened their lifespan due to lifestyle choices, or even also lack of choice/informat…

Nomadic hunters had quite long lifespans; agriculture introduced shorter lifespans and difficult lifestyles.

We agree on point two though: Laws allowing no overtime for developers have allowed long work hours that we now know are very harmful.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#203

Post by Andre_Wanglin »

Steltek wrote: post #184
Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obesity is a sign of improved living conditions that is also a sign of declining living conditions. The former conditions are largely out of the individual's control while the latter conditions are largely in his control. That is, being able to be obese is dictated by the economic vitality of one's country whereas being obese is dictated by one's actions.

There are a lot of roadblocks put in the way to controlling your weight. In the US that on the intake, junk food is readily available while healthy food is a luxury. Conversely, the US working environment suffers from increasingly medieval labor laws[+], limiting one's ability to exercise or live a well balanced lifestyle. I wouldn't be so eager to say "being obese is dictated by one's actions". It's an equal mix of…

I dispute that avoiding obesity requires either exercise or high-quality nutrition. It is simply a matter of maintaining a caloric balance at a healthy weight. This can be effectively controlled entirely on the intake side. (See the nutritionist who lost weight and improved his bloodwork on a gas station junk food diet. [0]) Other countries with varied labor and economic conditions (presumably among them are some you would not label medieval) are experiencing the same obesity pandemic. There is nothing unique about the US in this regard other than it has been leading the trend.

[0]: http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#204

Post by mbrodersen »

dzdt wrote: post #183
Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obesity is a sign of improved living conditions that is also a sign of declining living conditions. The former conditions are largely out of the individual's control while the latter conditions are largely in his control. That is, being able to be obese is dictated by the economic vitality of one's country whereas being obese is dictated by one's actions.

But one's actions are also largely dictated by societal living conditions. Many people are extremely time-constrained due to working + commuting + child caring hours. Finding time to exercise or to prepare healthy food is a challenge. Add to this that healthy food is often less easily available and more expensive than unhealthy choices. There is a degree of individual control, but it is society that controls what is…

I call bullshit on this. "Busy" people always seems to have plenty of time to watch TV, be on Facebook/Twitter and/or play video games.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#205

Post by Iv »

xstartup wrote: post #193
Iv wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I made it clear that this was a single person's opinion. And obviously biased that is. Still an interesting opinion in light of the recent trade war saber rattlings. But realize that cities like Guangzhou (pop. 25 M) have been trading hubs for much longer than the USA has existed. And some families have had a continuous line of business for centuries. The business culture is very strong there.

What I've experienced in China is that trade can happen without any monetary transaction or contract and the chance of getting screwed over is very low in upper strata. This is something, I never saw in the US.

Even at the lower strata, people understand what reputation is. And to be honest, only in the US does "buyers beware" feel like a sound business strategy. Most countries understand the need to go beyond that.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#206

Post by dis-sys »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #200
dis-sys wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doctors in the west get paid top $, while Chinese dentists/doctors are getting paid much lower, e.g. far lower than PHP programmers.to give you a quick example: it costs up to $1,000-$2,000 to remove a bad wisdom tooth in Sydney, it is $20-30 in the biggest dentist hospital in Shanghai.

If you click the link you'll see that China has fewer doctors and nurses per capita: >>With 1.6 physicians per 1000 population in 2012, China had much fewer doctors per capita than the OECD average (3.2 physicians). The number of nurses per capita in China (1.8 nurses per 1000 population in 2012) is also much lower than the OECD average (8.8 nurses). As for the affordability of dental services, would you say that's a…

> China has fewer doctors and nurses per capita

That explains why the public spending on healthcare is less - less doctors/nurses per capita, together with far less pay for doctors/nurses. the 1.6 doctors per 1000 population vs 3.2 in OECD countries is not a surprise, Chinese doctors have for decades been forced to work much longer hours.

> As for the affordability of dental services, would you say that's an argument for deregulation and lowering of mandatory quality standards?

It is the complete opposite - the cost is so low because they got over-regulated. The mind set of the government is that "dental issues are usually not life threatening, it thus shouldn't be expensive", all charges by public hospitals are exclusively set by the Price Bureau (Yes, there is Price Bureau!) and dental costs are just stupidly low.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#207

Post by microcolonel »

Nomentatus wrote: post #201
wallace_f wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to flesh out self determination from ennvironmental factors. Not to sound overwhelmingly 'r/iam14andthisisdeep, but consider: 1) Nomadic hunter gatherers who have shortened their lifespans due to their lifestyle choices, or lack of choice/information in determining their lifestyle; and 2) App developers who may also have shortened their lifespan due to lifestyle choices, or even also lack of choice/informat…

Nomadic hunters had quite long lifespans; agriculture introduced shorter lifespans and difficult lifestyles. We agree on point two though: Laws allowing no overtime for developers have allowed long work hours that we now know are very harmful.

> We agree on point two though: Laws allowing no overtime for developers have allowed long work hours that we now know are very harmful.

Excuse me? Keep your grubby hands off my time. I alone should decide if, when, and how I sell my mortality for cold hard cash. Whether or not you think it's bad for me is of absolutely no importance to my right to do it.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#208

Post by spiralx »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #138
jewelry wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should really think if your impression of the apocalyptic situation is actual thing or just propaganda. Smoking though is a probability thing just as the obesity is.

I lived in Beijing for 10 years (until 2016). Even the most committed wumao wouldn’t it’s pretty bad. Western media (if you mean by propaganda) if anything makes the problem sound not as bad as it really is, but how could any westerner even begin to comprehend an AQI reading over 300 let alone 500 or 1000. Actually, the only people who say the air isn’t bad are the ones who have never been before.

True, but remember that 4,000 people died in four days in London during the "pea souper" of 1952, when visibility was about a metre or less:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-42357608/death-by-smog...

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/grahamsrealm/great-smog-of-1952/...

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#209

Post by ItsMe000001 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #186
ItsMe000001 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it backward looking? I don't have an opinion about China, but just in general, I'm sure they don't have data from the future :-) I would say it is okay to say that about such predictions. There are others that don't rely as much on past data, but especially this kind of prediction surely is entirely based on numbers from the past, or do we have a model that reliably predicts those outcomes from at least pres…

> I don't have an opinion about China, but just in general, I'm sure they don't have data from the future :-) Well then all studies are ‘backward looking’ then and it’s a stupid criticism, and why mention it since it’s obvious and there’s no other way they could have done it.

I think what you just wrote falls back on you. The parent just mentioned it, nothing special, AND it made sense as part of his argument. It was you who made a big deal of it.

You wrote

> How is it backward looking?

Which is clearly wrong! You even just admitted it.

Please don't try to make it look like it's the parent commenters fault now.

Re: China overtakes U.S. for healthy lifespan: WHO data

#210

Post by joe_the_user »

Nomentatus wrote: post #118
wallace_f wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect to living conditions, it appears the "everything is gettng better," and "everything is getting worse," ideas are among the most succeptible to groupthink, and to cognitive dissonance. I also see this at reddit. Depending on the topic, and how it is framed, it seems everyone is either in agreement that life getting better, or that it is getting worse. For a counter example to your comment, most at this po…

Not in dispute - the question wasn't whether life in the U.S. was getting better but whether it was getting shorter.

It's a fact, not a question, that US life expectancies have declined. The way the decline has happened, suicide and drug overdoses compensating for medical advances that normally provide a slow, steady increase in life expectancy in most countries, give a strong indication that life in the US has also gotten worse for a significant fraction of the population.
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