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Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

bbc.com

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Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#201

Post by nostrademons »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #100
merpnderp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-preservation is the most selfish thing you can be centered on, and it is absolutely ethically and morally correct. Being self-centered is what makes free markets successful, as in pitting your self interests against others, brings out the most productive aspects of everyone involved.

Except by that standard, me pouring waste in the river, instead of paying to have it properly disposed is "ethically and morally correct."

There is such a thing as enlightened self-interest, where you consider not just what's good for yourself in the here-and-now but also whether the likely consequences to you (both natural and social) are going to be good.

Dumping waste in the river may be cheaper now, but won't be if you get hit by a fine, or have to deal with an angry mob at the factory gates, or end up polluting your own drinking water supply.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#202

Post by stcredzero »

sho wrote: post #198
stcredzero wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what my Chinese wife says about all that. People go to a monthly meeting. You hear a "sermon" and sing some patriotic songs. Then people go on with their lives. Not everyone who goes to church necessarily really believes. Not everyone necessarily believed even in the 1800s. That said, the social/theocratic hegemony of western Christianity wasn't all good, but it also wasn't all bad. The same probably goes for…

That sounds like a meeting for party members, often people (or the families of people) angling for local government jobs. Of course there'll be some True Believers but the subtext is it's basically a networking event. So yes, definitely like Church ;)

My wife's dad is supposed to be quite patriotic. I think he's connected. (She's the youngest of 6 sisters. Note the policy implications.)

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#203

Post by stcredzero »

sho wrote: post #195
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful with generalizing. Southerners, and very especially Fujianese, are less patriotic than Chinese in other parts of China, especially the north.

> Careful with generalizing Well, indeed. In my experience it varies very widely and pretty much follows the pattern you see everywhere else - intelligent, curious people with good job options tend to be less concerned with patriotism; the less fortunate find solace in it. The most loudly and irrationally patriotic chinese person I know is from guangzhou. Still wants to move away though of course, what's a little cog…

intelligent, curious people with good job options tend to be less concerned with patriotism; the less fortunate find solace in it.

Then, there are also people with memories of what happened in the 1st part of the 20th century.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#204

Post by emodendroket »

edflsafoiewq wrote: post #199
emodendroket wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our law does not consider those things equivalent and I bet if you went around and asked many people would not consider that equivalent either.

Naturally a society which practices abortion but not abandonment would think so. But in both cases the function is essentially to provide a mechanism for infanticide to a society in which infanticide is prohibited (or rather, abhorred). There is a rationalization (for us, that the fetus isn't a child; for them, that the child is not actually killed, its life being turned over to the gods or to fate) but the rationali…

I don't agree, but I think my argument would work equally well if we took the example of being born into slavery.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#205

Post by stcredzero »

thisisit wrote: post #150
1_800_UNICORN wrote: post #33

Very interesting article, but I was disappointed that the article stated that the millenial only-children of China are "outspoken", "pampered", or "self-centered". I don't believe that any of those terms apply to people who are fighting against working 72 hours per week for low pay. This is a case of basic human rights. The words that come to mind to describe the folks who are fighting this fight are "proud", "resili…

I think each generation thinks the next one is the worse. I just hope these guys are not treated unfairly at their workplace. Couple of years ago, I had raised staying late in office as a big concern at my workplace. My manager told me a story about how his daughter will not eat certain food items. He said he would killed to have those food in his plate. But now, he has to strong arm his daughter into finishing her p…

My manager told me a story about how his daughter will not eat certain food items. He said he would killed to have those food in his plate. But now, he has to strong arm his daughter into finishing her plate

My mother told me something similar about never having enough mung bean sprouts.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#206

Post by auvi »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #180
marsrover wrote: post #8

> Li said that initially he felt he couldn’t be too be picky: he had majored in English, not in one of the sought-after science or technology fields, and he had attended a low-ranked university. Many of his friends are unemployed. To me, this was the most interesting part of the article. It all sounds so familiar.

A credential in "English" isn't the exemplar of self-indulgence that it would be in the US, where everybody already knows English and "English" as a school subject just means literature. Knowing English in China has real, immediate financial benefits. For any given job (programmer / secretary / waitress / anything), a role that involves having to communicate with English speakers is more prestigious and offers higher…

I agree. Jack Ma's biggest advantage was his ability to communicate in English, which opened may doors for him.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#207

Post by collyw »

kevas wrote: post #28
collyw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me. I think I am underpaid (actually I think most devs in my country are underpaid) so i don't do it with the exception of when I made a major cock up and the team was waiting on me.

Serious question: why do you think you're underpaid? Why do you feel you should be making more. The market has said that you're currently worth/getting paid X. So... why think you're Y?

I see what people in other places earn. Last time I mentioned I was in Spain a number of people said that the salaries sounded low. Still the quality of life is decent here or I would move.

Its often the case that nurses and teachers are considered underpaid as well. While bankers are overpaid. Would you agree with that?

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#208

Post by collyw »

mayniac wrote: post #82
monsieurbanana wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said "actually I think most devs in my country are underpaid".

They also said the words "cock up" They're very likely in the UK. They are very likely getting underpaid for dev work, unless they're a contractor. Our salaries are definitely lower here than in the states.

I am from the UK working in Spain, I think the UK pays better than here, though depends on the location.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#209

Post by mywittyname »

withdavidli wrote: post #116
jsemrau wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, who "wants" to work overtime ? Most European work cultures survive well with a great work-life balance.

I know many people that are hourly that loves overtime. 1.5x-2x pay means a world of difference to them. Jobs for them ranges from drivers, construction, to programmers. Some are hoarding money for early retirement, just to make more, others are contract basis so earning 2-3x projected amount enables them to take half the year off. This is to the point where many of these friends loathe to take an exempt job because…

These professions also enjoy long periods of downtime. Which is really the important factor. Sure, it sucks working 12 hours days for long periods of time, but the weeks or months long periods of downtime between sessions make them tolerable.

I wouldn't mind two weeks of 5x12s followed by a full week off.

Floor nurses often work 3x12 shifts, so three 12-hours days with four days off per week. When my partner was a floor nurse, she would often try to schedule that magical 6x12 shift that provides eight days of vacation. Throw in three days of PTO the next week and you'd have yourself a 15-day vacation!

Whereas, if I want 15 consecutive days off, I'd need to spend 88 hours of PTO.

Re: Young Chinese are sick of working long hours

#210

Post by mywittyname »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #100
merpnderp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-preservation is the most selfish thing you can be centered on, and it is absolutely ethically and morally correct. Being self-centered is what makes free markets successful, as in pitting your self interests against others, brings out the most productive aspects of everyone involved.

Except by that standard, me pouring waste in the river, instead of paying to have it properly disposed is "ethically and morally correct."

You have a selfish interest in maintaining your society. This includes things like ensuring the less fortunate in your community are fed, clothed, and sheltered, and that you don't destroy the environment in which you live.

But, as we often see, people act against their self-interest all the time.

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