Stop complaining and pay programmers more • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#201

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 12:59 PM UTC

RiderOfGiraffes wrote: post #144

Having tried this approach I can tell you that offering more money results in perhaps a doubling of the number of barely competent programmers, a ten-fold increase in the number of completely clueless, and no apparent increase in the number of people we'd actually want. My results are not statistically valid, I've only gone through the hiring cycle five times, but my impression from actually trying it is that salary…

> The problem isn't attracting candidates, it's getting the candidates to see your job opening, to understand that it's a great place to work, and then filtering out the clueless.

And then offering them enough money so they don't have to worry about it. Because, I'm sorry to say, minimum wage isn't going to cut it.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#202

Post by GBond » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:02 PM UTC

rosejn wrote: post #146

ww520 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors, dentists, and lawyers have legislated their jobs so that they can maintain monopoly through their guilds and licenses. That's why they can charge such a high rate. If programmers can get non-licensed programmers writing code go to jail, their rate would go up, too.

I am incredibly happy that this will never happen in software development. Elitist, protectionist mechanisms like this would dramatically limit the talent pool, slow down innovation, and restrict thinking to a set of norms agreed upon by a conservative organization intending to maintain the status quo. Programming is more of a meritocracy than in many other fields, and I think we should be proud of this. If people wa…

> Elitist, protectionist mechanisms like this

In fairness to lawyers and doctors, they serve needs that have a larger societal impact thus the need to to have more stringent process of instilling the right training and enforcing ethics.

Programmers are perceived to be be neutral in this regard.

People understand this concept as it applied to lawyers and doctors. Most folks frown on ambulance-chasers and boob-jobs plastic surgeons.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#203

Post by nickzoic » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:16 PM UTC

techiferous wrote: post #77

coffeemug wrote: post #53

I suppose this refers to us (and our Will the real programmers please stand up post). If it doesn't, excuse our self-centeredness and kindly disregard this message. Our salary structure is designed to select for exactly the type of people we want to attract - the kinds of people that will go through walls to bend the world to their will, for some deeply ingrained reason unknown to anyone but them. For people like tha…

"unlikely to find a higher compensation anywhere other than choosing to start your own business." Which is exactly what I did. Freelance contract programming pays the bills (and is quite enjoyable) and I'm bootstrapping a startup on the side. It's not so much for the compensation as the challenge of something new and the independence to make my own decisions. So at least in my case, it's not your fault. You can put t…

waves. Yeah, I literally fell into the consulting business, and here I still am, 2-1/2 years later, slowly transmogrifying from a consultant into a small business. It'd not really about the money: as a family guy flexibility counts for a whole lot more.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#204

Post by dreepers10 » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:17 PM UTC

coffeemug wrote: post #53

I suppose this refers to us (and our Will the real programmers please stand up post). If it doesn't, excuse our self-centeredness and kindly disregard this message. Our salary structure is designed to select for exactly the type of people we want to attract - the kinds of people that will go through walls to bend the world to their will, for some deeply ingrained reason unknown to anyone but them. For people like tha…

tl;dr: Choose to start your own business.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#205

Post by chime » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:24 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #186

chime wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you incentivize the good ones to work for you? If you have a solution to that problem, I suspect you'll be a very much in-demand person. Bonuses, perks, and congrats on jobs well-done. If I spend 40 hours between Dec 31 and Jan 2 writing up a new wireless barcoding system because the powers that be decided at the last minute to begin the new year with a different process for warehousing, I better get a damn…

Bonuses, perks, and congrats on jobs well-done. Speaking only for myself, non of those things would really swing it too much for me. Give me challenging projects in my preferred problem domain, sane working hours and environment, an opportunity to grow and improve my skills and surround me with brilliant colleagues to work with, and I'll happily forgo the perks and bonuses.

> Give me challenging projects in my preferred problem domain

The projects were challenging, that's why I stayed for so long. When you have tons of student loans, mortgage, and hospital bills, you can't forgo the perks and bonuses. I have a family to take care of so what I really want is everything. I want a good work environment, I want good money, and I want fun projects. Why? Because I give them back what they need: stable/reliable, problem-solver, productive etc.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#206

Post by neall » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:30 PM UTC

adamc wrote: post #191

jdale27 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it piqued your interest.

Is there a name for that phenomenon, where people hear terms in use but map them to the wrong words? Or the opposite, where people learn words through reading but mispronounce them?

malapropism

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#207

Post by Retric » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:38 PM UTC

watmough wrote: post #112

mikemainguy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly, physicians, mechanics, lawyers, and many other skilled tradesmen are just like programmers. The problem is that many folks see programmers as somehow different than these folks.

Isn't it even worse? None of those professions have access to copy and paste! We all know programmers who would be sunk without it.

Good lawyers use copy and paste all the time. ;-)

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#208

Post by gaius » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:02 PM UTC

rosejn wrote: post #146

ww520 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors, dentists, and lawyers have legislated their jobs so that they can maintain monopoly through their guilds and licenses. That's why they can charge such a high rate. If programmers can get non-licensed programmers writing code go to jail, their rate would go up, too.

I am incredibly happy that this will never happen in software development. Elitist, protectionist mechanisms like this would dramatically limit the talent pool, slow down innovation, and restrict thinking to a set of norms agreed upon by a conservative organization intending to maintain the status quo. Programming is more of a meritocracy than in many other fields, and I think we should be proud of this. If people wa…

Would it really tho'?

I mean, PE (or CEng in the UK) is an "elitist, protectionist mechanism" but it hasn't hurt innovation in aviation or civil engineering, has it?

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#209

Post by ojbyrne » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:14 PM UTC

mikemainguy wrote: post #34

ojbyrne wrote: post #28

I have a simple theory. Most managers are still educated according to Taylor's Scientific Theory of Management, where the managers are more intelligent than the "factors of production," and their role is to "scientifically" direct their work so that they create additional value (which is multiplied by how many workers they have reporting to them). Their salaries reflect that model, and thus is proportional to the sal…

That's silly, physicians, mechanics, lawyers, and many other skilled tradesmen are just like programmers. The problem is that many folks see programmers as somehow different than these folks.

Doctors and lawyers are typically self-employed, or they're employed at institutions that require (often by law) that managers actually have to be doctors or lawyers. So you're correct, they are like programmers, but a solution has been reached already for the problem I describe. I'm not sure skilled tradesman (not to denigrate their work) have the same "productivity is determined by intelligence" issue.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#210

Post by tesseract » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:35 PM UTC

neall wrote: post #206

adamc wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a name for that phenomenon, where people hear terms in use but map them to the wrong words? Or the opposite, where people learn words through reading but mispronounce them?

malapropism

or "eggcorn", if the substituted term makes some kind of sense in context.