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Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

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Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a request like this, the best you can hope for it lots of data points (ie anecdata). What I've seen is that in the jobs filled by younger people with little skills on the worker side and near-exploitative conduct on the employer side, was a) a rather shallow loss function ("what if I lose this job? I'm underpaid, it's a dead-end, and I can easily get another job like this", that they often still live in their pa…

I've seen the same rationalizations from salaried well-paid people.

Yea, it's not really a lack of morals to fuck over someone whose actively fucking you over like many low end jobs do. The few bosses I had that didn't exploit people ended up with much higher loyalty and rule following on the employee end. The other employees helped enforced it with social pressure too, as no one liked seeing the good boss get advantage taken of them

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#202

Great article. A few years ago (at a previous job) I took a sick day for "sanity", but told them I wasn't feeling well. I felt guilty about doing it. I think part of it is the association of sick leave with externally visible medical issues, and the corresponding "straightforward" medical verification. In other words, if you have a temperature or are vomiting, that's obvious. Many infections or physical injury can be…

Throwaway. My work requires a medical certificate for certain situations. No exceptions. Sometimes it's easier for me to simply turn up to work sick for a day, than try and get a cert. I'd feel worse about doing this, but I am pretty sure other people do this too. And it's an open plan office of course, so diseases just spread through the office. You should simply get a large pool of personal leave that accrues and y…

I worked for an employer who had a large percentage of union employees. All employees were held to the same rules and as a result, you could only be out sick twice in one year. The third time meant you were written up. If you were out more than a day, you had to have a doctor's note. I had a procedure done and was so terrified about the rules, I went to work. The pain was unbearable and they sent me to the on-site doctor. He looked at my stitches and asked why the hell I came in. I could barely laugh through the pain at the irony of it.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#203
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Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#204

first off, good for madalyn, it takes too much courage to introduce specifics regarding any kind of sick time and mental health is especially burdensome. now, moving on to the rest of the post: of course it's still an issue. taking sick time for any reason is still an issue. everyone feels the pressure to not be sick, to not take sick time, and to work while sick. i have never worked for any organization where this w…

You've hit the nail on the head with these points. I'd just like to add that another reason mental health is taboo is because of the way we relate to others. Whereas a physical issue is seen as a temporary and non-fundamental change to a person, mental issues are perceived to change the individual itself in a fundamental level (no matter how true that would be or how temporary the issue might be).

We are very likely to say that a person has "changed" if we uncover information that affects how we perceive their trustworthiness (for instance, being caught lying) as opposed to other types of behavior. Mental illness is similarly believed to affect the core of an individual's nature.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#205
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? I'm always unsure. These days, I'm generally a pretty positive guy but I know I've struggled in the past. On this particular team I was definitely not the biggest asshole. In fact, after this manager left, the biggest asshole was fired pretty much based on the fact that the new managers weren't willing to…

> Really mature, that guy is. This is really the only issue I have. Maybe your manager sucked, I don't know. But this specific story is absolutely the opposite. He put himself out on the line (as you say) and was honest with you. Typical folks would simply not talk to you whatsoever, but have the same reasoning. Maybe I'm strange, but I'd far prefer the latter. Story time. My best hire I've made was an employee with…

Since we're playing the "here's an issue I have with what you just said" game...

You "laid your cards out on the table" -- which, as you note, is likely grounds for some sort of legal proceedings -- and it turned out.. I don't know even know. You got lucky that you weren't sued, as you willfully trampled through anti-discrimination laws. Why did it take some sort of put-it-on-the-line moment for you to consider the candidate beyond their physical disability?

You even go on to say that if the candidate was "ethically challenged", your company might suffer. You admit here that you were considering not hiring them because of a disability. How is it ethically challenged to possibly fight back over a dismissal based on being in a protected class? Do you view people with disabilities as simply a liability to companies?

Your closing sentences really smack of backdoor bragging. Good thing he found you, how lucky of him, someone that would tell him flat out to his face that they were worried he couldn't perform his job... and then decided to grace him with employment.

As the OP said, really mature. :/

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#206
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where it gets tricky. Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? And is that even material to the decision to hire you or not? No one really cares why you act like that, they simply care that you do. I'm going to say it's entirely on you to present yourself in a positive light at work, and I honestly think your ex-manager was doing you a soli…

> This is where it gets tricky. > Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? See, if it's diagnosed depression then it's not tricky all. It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? For people with depression, sometimes "being positive" is "getting out of bed and finding a way to make it through the day" or even simply…

> It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this?

I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way.

> I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible.

Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize, and my advice is given as direct experience from my own life as the "victim" of my mental health being known professionally. I re-read my comment, and absolutely nothing about it was dismissive or implied to "think positively" as you imply.

If I could go back in time I'd never tell anyone I was severely depressed. It is not a good career move, no matter how much you wish that not to be the case. It's absolutely downright dangerous to think anyone actually cares about you in this aspect of your career.

> You're further warning them that if they do treat it their career is over and they should avoid that? You're being awful.

Didn't say that at all. I said make sure it's not known you received said treatment, as your career in many managerial/executive fields is now over. Again, you can hate that statement all you want - but I'm telling a truth from my personal experience. I made no illusions as to me wanting this to be the case? Where did you get that?

My point is thus: If you are known in executive circles in your industry to have had past mental health issues, your career is going to be severely impacted. Do you disagree with that statement? You don't have to want that to be the case, but you sure as hell need to know the game you are playing before you begin.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#207
One of the big problems with mental health is that it’s aggravated by bruising that you can’t see. If someone came up to you and gave you a paper cut every day for the next 3 years, you’d show some major scars and there would certainly be enough evidence to gain some sympathy. All the interactions you have in your day can also have a cumulative effect on the mind.

We can have laws or corporate rules or whatever but at the end of the day people just have to stop being so lousy to one another. Obviously this means there shouldn’t be people screaming at each other but it’s a lot more than that. It’s also the little things: don’t cut in lines, don’t be a jerk in traffic, don’t eat stinky meals in the middle of crowds, don’t get in peoples’ way or be generally oblivious to what’s around you, etc. These are all the “paper cuts” of the mind, gradually aggravating people day after day until they just can’t handle it anymore.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#208
post #205
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really mature, that guy is. This is really the only issue I have. Maybe your manager sucked, I don't know. But this specific story is absolutely the opposite. He put himself out on the line (as you say) and was honest with you. Typical folks would simply not talk to you whatsoever, but have the same reasoning. Maybe I'm strange, but I'd far prefer the latter. Story time. My best hire I've made was an employee with…

Since we're playing the "here's an issue I have with what you just said" game... You "laid your cards out on the table" -- which, as you note, is likely grounds for some sort of legal proceedings -- and it turned out.. I don't know even know. You got lucky that you weren't sued, as you willfully trampled through anti-discrimination laws. Why did it take some sort of put-it-on-the-line moment for you to consider the c…

> Your closing sentences really smack of backdoor bragging. Good thing he found you, how lucky of him, someone that would tell him flat out to his face that they were worried he couldn't perform his job... and then decided to grace him with employment.

Fair enough, could be seen that way. I only mentioned it because he's made that specific point himself to me many times. No one was willing to give him a shot for over a year due to his disability, yet in pop culture (as you have so clearly pointed out) I'm the evil one. I suppose that was an ill-advised addition, and should have been kept personal.

> Why did it take some sort of put-it-on-the-line moment for you to consider the candidate beyond their physical disability?

I really don't get this point. Why would I have taken the actions I did if I did not consider the candidate beyond their physical ability? I loved everything about him, but his disability put into severe question if he could perform the job. I had three choices at that point.

1) Round-bin the candidate. The vast majority of all employers do this at this stage.

2) Hire him blindly and hope for the best. In a 5 person startup this likely isn't a great plan for success. Plus if you make a hire like this and have to fire due to the disability not allowing him to perform the job I'm in a much stickier legal situation. Most likely I now get to hire another person to also do his job, and as a 5 man startup that just ended the company.

3) Talk with the candidate about my concerns, and see if we can come up with some reasonable accommodation. This is hugely risky as an employer if we end up not being able to come up with anything that works for us both. I took this option as I consider #1 absolutely immoral, and #2 had financial realities attached to it all the wishful thinking in the world wouldn't make go away.

And I do think you missed my point. The vast majority of employers completely ignore candidates like this because of posts like yours (e.g. the social climate) and legal liability if they say the wrong thing. In your estimation, I'm required to hire someone with a disability that cannot do the job. That is not true.

It took that moment because there were serious and legitimate concerns about his ability to do the job. Since he was a reasonable person he discussed those concerns with me like an adult, and we found a solution that worked for both of us. Hired. Had we not been able to find a workable solution, I shouldn't have had to open myself up to a potential frivolous lawsuit due to that fact.

And yes, you can say I trampled through anti-discrimination laws I suppose. But doing so got him hired, when before it would have been an open question if he could legitimately perform the job duties required. In this case, following the letter of the law would have hurt him since I could not have even broached the subject.

> Do you view people with disabilities as simply a liability to companies?

Again, I think you are having severe problems separating what reality actually is, to what the law says. I never said this in any way - I specifically noted how there were legitimate concerns over the employee's disability to do the job required. There are no reasonable accommodations to be made if the job is talk on the phone and you are incapable of doing so, and I would have had zero way to know if this problem was able to be mitigated in any fashion until I asked. Which I legally cannot do.

My point was if I had followed the law, that guy's resume would have been trashed like it was for the 50+ companies he got into and interviewed with to that point. Magically zero companies were interested the second he had to speak in person or on the phone and his disability revealed itself. He was otherwise solid, and me taking the time and liability to actually engage him in discussion about my concerns allowed me to feel comfortable hiring him and got his career started. My secondary point is good managers will absolutely color outside the lines with you and work with you to be successful in your career. OPs manager took him aside and outlined his concerns - in my opinion (as someone who has suffered the same condition) that's extremely respectful. The typical manager would have simply never even talked to the guy again, as it wasn't worth the risk.

I guess I simply will refuse to feel bad about this, even though you'd like that outcome. I'm absolutely proud I stuck my neck out and did the right thing - very few companies will these days. There are entire classes of untouchables I could talk your ear off about that everyone has utterly forgotten where the laws supposedly "protect" them but do the exact opposite. I put my money where my mouth is, where most simply ignore the problem exists due to perceived liability while simultaneously patting themselves on the back over how progressive they are being. It's sickening to me.

Edit: cleaned up some prose, less confrontational.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#209
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> That is every penny they earn is pure spending money I never looked at it as pure spending money - it was mostly saving for an education and a start in my adult life. Might be why I'm one of the few of my generation that doesn't think the entire economy is stacked against them?

With the exception of a Nintendo DS, 1 game, and some beer, all of my money from 4 years of jobs went to rent,food, and the tiny little bit left over went to tuition. Anyone going to college in the past 20 years was not paying for it all with a job you could hold while going to classes

graduated with a B.S. 5 years ago debt-free with no help from parents. It's possible.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#210

One of the big problems with mental health is that it’s aggravated by bruising that you can’t see. If someone came up to you and gave you a paper cut every day for the next 3 years, you’d show some major scars and there would certainly be enough evidence to gain some sympathy. All the interactions you have in your day can also have a cumulative effect on the mind. We can have laws or corporate rules or whatever but a…

I say this with as much compassion as possible (though it's going to be hard to sound that way over the Internet). A lot of those aggravations are more perceived than actual, thanks to the mental illness itself. You could say "how's it going, buddy" to a depressed and a non-depressed person, and the non-depressed person could see it as a genuine and caring remark and the depressed person could see it as sarcastic or uncaring or whatever. A depressed person could see someone cutting lanes as a jerk, a non-depressed person may see them as in a rush and busy.

Depression is something that colors the entire world dark and gray. It turns a bunch of normal remarks into thousands of little papercuts. No one is right or wrong here, but for a depressed person, understanding how depression colors the world can be useful.

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